pumping flush draws with few opponents? - Page 2

lufbradolly · #11 09-27-2005, 12:27 PM

Hero calls to keep SB in.

benkath1 · #12 09-27-2005, 12:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a big fan of the 3-bet/check club.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? I'm not sure I get what you're saying.

After reading this thread, I'm convinced. I'll raise and take the free card from the passive.

droolie · #13 09-27-2005, 01:03 PM

I reraise. I don't care if SB calls or folds. If he folds it might clean up my A outs. I want a free card.

SlantNGo · #14 09-27-2005, 01:27 PM

Bet/3-betting a flush draw from early position then checking the turn when you miss. I will 3-bet a flush draw in late position with only 2 callers but in early position, I want 3 .

Also, in late position, I generally don't care all that much if I knock out others because if I can get the free card, that is huge for me. WOHEP's chapter on raising for a free card is excellent and has definitely helped me understand when to use it and how often it needs to work to be profitable.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a big fan of the 3-bet/check club.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? I'm not sure I get what you're saying.

After reading this thread, I'm convinced. I'll raise and take the free card from the passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

pyedog · #15 09-27-2005, 01:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a big fan of the 3-bet/check club.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? I'm not sure I get what you're saying.

After reading this thread, I'm convinced. I'll raise and take the free card from the passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe he means that if the flop raiser was behind him (instead of a check raise) then he would have just called the raise because he doesn't like to 3-bet the flush draw on the flop OOP and then check on the turn.

I think that's a good point because too often I three-bet or cap the flop with a flush draw OOP and then just check the turn. Seems like an awkward play. Of course if the pot is really multiway so the flop raises are for value it's no big deal.

SlantNGo · #16 09-27-2005, 01:39 PM

Dude, you're from Waterloo too? There's a bunch of Waterloo people on this board it seems.

pyedog · #17 09-27-2005, 01:48 PM

Yeah it seems like there are quite a few Waterloo people on here. I'm a UW grad and working here now. Play 5-10 at Brantford on occasion. Usually read the site more than posting though.

MN_Mime · #18 09-27-2005, 01:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars Hold'em (7 handed)
FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Table was full but a couple of people had just sat out.
MP was too loose, I was isolating. Nevermind the preflop.

Onto the flop:

SB is tight and weak. (something like 15/2)
BB is extremely loose and passive. (something like 50/8)

What do I do on the flop and why?

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, MP calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB raises, MP folds, Hero ??

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the PFR.

Based upon the action, I probably put SB on broadway overs (possibly a small-mid PP), MP on suited overs (possibly connectors). The BB is tougher... could be a random 5 or two pair; could be TPTK or an overpair playing back at your 'missed overs'.

I'm in left field on this hand, I guess. I don't understand why everyone is treating this like a thin draw. You've made a hand with strong redraws and should be playing this for value/semi-bluff. You're probably reverse dominating outstanding aces. You can narrow the hand ranges, certainly, but I have to believe you've still got 50% equity in this pot.

A little PokerStove...

SB: 06.4500 % [ 00.05 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
BB: 23.4701 % [ 00.22 00.01 ] { random }
Hero: 53.0816 % [ 00.53 00.00 ] { Ac6c }
MP: 16.9984 % [ 00.16 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A9o, KQo-K9o, QJo-QTo, JTo }

You've got to tread lightly if the board pairs, but you're unlikely to be outdrawn on any turn that improves you.

tiltaholic · #19 09-27-2005, 02:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars Hold'em (7 handed)
FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Table was full but a couple of people had just sat out.
MP was too loose, I was isolating. Nevermind the preflop.

Onto the flop:

SB is tight and weak. (something like 15/2)
BB is extremely loose and passive. (something like 50/8)

What do I do on the flop and why?

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, MP calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB raises, MP folds, Hero ??

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the PFR.

Based upon the action, I probably put SB on broadway overs (possibly a small-mid PP), MP on suited overs (possibly connectors). The BB is tougher... could be a random 5 or two pair; could be TPTK or an overpair playing back at your 'missed overs'.

I'm in left field on this hand, I guess. I don't understand why everyone is treating this like a thin draw. You've made a hand with strong redraws and should be playing this for value/semi-bluff. You're probably reverse dominating outstanding aces. You can narrow the hand ranges, certainly, but I have to believe you've still got 50% equity in this pot.

A little PokerStove...

SB: 06.4500 % [ 00.05 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
BB: 23.4701 % [ 00.22 00.01 ] { random }
Hero: 53.0816 % [ 00.53 00.00 ] { Ac6c }
MP: 16.9984 % [ 00.16 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A9o, KQo-K9o, QJo-QTo, JTo }

You've got to tread lightly if the board pairs, but you're unlikely to be outdrawn on any turn that improves you.

[/ QUOTE ]

your hand ranges make no sense to me. i can put MP on almost any 2, same with BB. SB, being tight and in the SB could have almst any suited cards, any mid-small pair, and many other overcard or connected hands.

clearly i am betting the flop, then checkraised by a passive BB - now you expect i have 50% equity here? i think that is very optimistic.

MN_Mime · #20 09-27-2005, 02:41 PM

your hand ranges make no sense to me. i can put MP on almost any 2, same with BB. SB, being tight and in the SB could have almst any suited cards, any mid-small pair, and many other overcard or connected hands.

clearly i am betting the flop, then checkraised by a passive BB - now you expect i have 50% equity here? i think that is very optimistic.

[/ QUOTE ]

hand ranges:
I was giving MP credit for a reasonable LAG limping hand. FWIW, changing the hand ranges doesn't much change YOUR equity when you've got this much of the flop.

50% equity?

Good question, but why not? You represented a big hand PF and *clearly* you missed the flop. I understand that he's passive but that doesn't mean retarded. He doesn't need to have a monster to raise you here. He may recognize the isolation, you may have a loose table image, he may regard your bet as an automatic position bet. Could he have called PF with a bigger offsuit Ace? Can he raise OESD + paired board? Even putting him on a monster headsup...

Hand 1: 59.1204 % [ 00.58 00.01 ] { 77-66, 44, 85s, 76s, 74s, 64s, 53s, 85o, 76o, 74o, 64o, 53o }
Hand 2: 40.8796 % [ 00.40 00.01 ] { Ac6c }

Giving him credit for a possible overpair improves your equity...

Hand 1: 55.4464 % [ 00.55 00.01 ] { AA-66, 44, 85s, 76s, 74s, 64s, 53s, 85o, 76o, 74o, 64o, 53o }
Hand 2: 44.5536 % [ 00.44 00.01 ] { Ac6c }

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So, yes, I think you've got close enough to 50% equity when you litter around some random loose nuttiness and you've already trapped SB for a call. You can make a case for trying to keep SB around, but I think you're good often enough without him and SB may feel pot-committed if he's got enough of the flop.