Stress Level of a Downswing

[Hojglad]

[ QUOTE ]
In addition to my suggestions on this thread, one other thing I found that helped me restore my enthusiasm to play poker again was to have fun doing it. Now, that sounds awfully hard to do when the beats keep coming, but one time I always have fun playing is at a 2+2 table. Whether a donking or learning table, I know that win, lose, or draw, I was going to have a good time playing poker for an hour or two. Try out getting one started. If you go in knowing you'll have fun and not care about the results, it's a lot easier to trick your brain into thinking the same thing when you sit down the next time.

[/ QUOTE ]
The lower the stakes, the better. Usually between 2 and 3am on friday nights, me and my friends get together for 0.01/0.02 TDL or omaha on ultimate bet. Nothing makes poker fun again like capping preflop and then drawing 4 cards in tdl. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[KingOtter]

Thanks for all the responses. One reason I haven't been around very much lately is because of this latest rough patch.

I have enthusiasm to play. Hell, all I want to do is play. But I want to play *right*, not whacked out. So I'm limiting my play.

I had fun a couple times at 2+2 tables, but lately my roll is everything. I don't have extra... I don't have spare. So I can't really donk around with my real money or I'm threatening my current level, etc. Even when I did have extra, I was more focused on building it further.

That may be another reason why having this sort of downswing can be so crushing. I want the money. I want an LCD monitor. I want to buy my wife a clothing shopping spree. I want to get out of debt, and I want to start investing money. My paycheck doesn't cover that stuff, so the only way I can get it is through poker. And while all that seemed very probable, now I need to be roll-building again.

I have gone over to play money and tried different games... some 7-card, some Omaha. And yes, it was interesting to play, even though there were a couple people calling down no matter what... it was still interesting.

Anyway... I haven't been posting because after all the downswing-hating threads we had (that I contributed to) I knew what I needed to do... what I still need to do. I think this thread has definitely spelled it out for me better than I had spelled it out for myself (even though I knew the problem, I hadn't really put it to words yet).

Here's my 1/2 experience, in pictures:
Click to see graph.

KO

[Hojglad]

To tell you the truth, your downswing doesn't really look that bad. I mean sure, it's pretty big, but at least it's not over like 1k hands or something. I know that poker can be frusturating when you aren't winning, but just keep playing your best and eventually it will turn around - it almost has to. Fish can't beat your superior decisions in the long run. I endured a similar swing at 1/2 (and when I started at 2/4), and it sucked. I remember it well. If anything, this will make you re-examine your game and patch up holes that you find that you weren't aware existed while you were running well. You will be a better poker player for it. Just remember - the results of a single hand don't matter. The results of 5000 hands don't really matter. The results of 10000 hands don't really matter (you should be concerned if your downswing lasts this long, though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). If you want to convince yourself of this, I created a spreadsheet for my friend that models a player with any "true" winrate that you want, and you get to set the standard deviation on the player. You can simulate up to 100,000 hands using my spreadsheet. You will find that a significant winner is often behind after 10,000 hands. If you are interested in this spreadsheet, just throw me a PM and I'll email it to you. Other than that, just keep grinding it out. If you are a winning player, the record will reflect that as you keep on logging hands.

[SlantNGo]

Dude, listen to my 1/2 experience when I first moved up in December. I played about 7k hands and lost ~250 BB then moved back down to 0.5/1. Due to school, I didn't play much from April to July, but in August, I went back to 0.5/1 to get warmed up again, followed by the move back up to 1/2 (full only, no 9-max). The very bottom of the graph is when I stopped in January... I totally lost confidence in my play. In fact, my game probably wasn't at the level needed to beat 1/2 back then, and it has certainly improved since then, so the downswing was probably the best thing that happened to me.

While I wasn't able to play due to school, I still kept my mind fresh by reading posts and responding to posts. I feel that my game has improved 100% since I last attempted to move up. Now I just need to keep playing it out at 1/2 and get those numbers up...

I actually want to play 1/2 6-max rather than full, and I have 6-max experience from Ladbrokes and Absolute... actually played more 6-max than full table in most of my early days. However, I'm seeing it as a personal challenge to at least bring my BB/100 up to 1 at 1/2 full.

[sbu97]

I was just reading one of my Mike Caro books and read his advice, which is you get paid to make good decisions, not to win pots. He also says he roots for his opponents because it keeps that in perspective. When going though a bad run of cards, however, I say screw Mike, his advice, and my opponents! Going through a losing streak against bad opponents is like getting rejected by an ugly chick (something I've experienced far more often than I'd admit publicly).

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
To tell you the truth, your downswing doesn't really look that bad. I mean sure, it's pretty big, but at least it's not over like 1k hands or something. I know that poker can be frusturating when you aren't winning, but just keep playing your best and eventually it will turn around - it almost has to. Fish can't beat your superior decisions in the long run. I endured a similar swing at 1/2 (and when I started at 2/4), and it sucked. I remember it well. If anything, this will make you re-examine your game and patch up holes that you find that you weren't aware existed while you were running well. You will be a better poker player for it. Just remember - the results of a single hand don't matter. The results of 5000 hands don't really matter. The results of 10000 hands don't really matter (you should be concerned if your downswing lasts this long, though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). If you want to convince yourself of this, I created a spreadsheet for my friend that models a player with any "true" winrate that you want, and you get to set the standard deviation on the player. You can simulate up to 100,000 hands using my spreadsheet. You will find that a significant winner is often behind after 10,000 hands. If you are interested in this spreadsheet, just throw me a PM and I'll email it to you. Other than that, just keep grinding it out. If you are a winning player, the record will reflect that as you keep on logging hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, when I looked at the graph I said the same thing. 'That doesn't really look all that bad'. When I did it by money though, it's almost $500, because some of it was 2/4 play.

But what you point out as 'at least it isn't over 1K hands'... hell, I would PREFER a single drop like that then this constant beating. Would you rather have your head chopped off, or a gazillion paper cuts? It's been 12k hands so far, and I usually play about 8k hands a month (this month I'm ahead of that pace substantially tho).

I'm on the tables right now, and I can already see the difference in my attitude. Less desperation, heh. Yeah, I've got some stupid beats (how about a 72J77 board, when I flopped the nut flush, villain had QQ) already, but I've also called down some hands I would have folded last night and won the hands. Including a 4-flusher with QQ (no queen of the flush card) that won.

Anyway, crazy what a little confidence can do. Don't get me wrong, I'm still down tonight, but I'm not scared of the cards anymore.

KO

[scotty34]

Am I the only one who thinks that -30BB/100 over 1000 hands is absolutely insane??? I don't know if I could lose that much if I tried. My VPIP is roughly 25%, meaning out of every 100 hands, I play about 25. This would mean losing, on average, more than 1BB on every hand I play for 1000 hands!

[KingOtter]

Yuck.

The one thing I know is that my downswing is neither catastrophic, nor the worst one out there. It is minor compared to what others have seen. And I can't imagine what this would have been like for a poker pro sitting at a table, and I'm sure they've all had them.


If I had gone straight down like you did (pretty much) my confidence would have been equally as shaken. I would have started trembling in your graph about half-way down. But I don't think I would have been as assured 'I can play this level' or 'I'm a winner at this level', which I was at the crest of my graph.

I was feeling a bit bullet-proof since I had a great run-up, including a little dip of a downswing in there to keep me honest.. So it is very shocking when the bullets start finding the seams.

Anyway, I didn't come on here to moan about my downswing... I've been staying away for it. Just posting on it today, though, seems to have given me new energy and I'm feeling better about my game than I have in weeks.

It's a shame we have to discourage downswing posts. Posting about mine helped me get my brain in order and do a little housekeeping.

Thanks DavidC for inadvertantly giving me an outlet! heh

KO

[UATrewqaz]

I dropped 120 BB at PP .5/1 in about 250 hands.

Set over set like 3 times, flopped two pair to have it get drawn out on about 5 times, AA 0/3 KK 0/2, flopped a full house to have it come runner runner A's to make a bigger fullhouse for someone else, I was just in stunned disbelief.

I thought "What's the point of playing poker if this can happen??"

I made up about half of the loss but then I stopped playing since then actually, I've whored a few bonuses and played some nano-limit on Stars for kicks (I'm beating .02/.04 for about 10+ BB / 100, woo) getting my confidence back I guess proving that good play triumphs int he long run.

I am a very competitive person. I love to compete and win and prove I'm the best. Thus it totally enrages me win I see incompitence rewarded at the poker table (in the short term of course), something a good poker MUST get used to seeing though. I cheer myself up by telling myself they will bust eventually. Childish? Yeah I guess....

Over hte past few months I've come to the realization I will NEVER have the emotional stability to play 2/4, 3/6, etc seriuosly. I will just play .5/1, 1/2 build my bankroll against the uber-fish and with bonuses until like 10 years from now I have like 25G's and I can go out and blow it all on a Benz or something.

[Hojglad]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a shame we have to discourage downswing posts. Posting about mine helped me get my brain in order and do a little housekeeping.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, like they say, no one really cares. Heh. As a matter of fact, most of the people reading your posts right now that play 1/2 are probably wishing you were running worse. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] May I suggest you change your location? Every time you look at your own avatar, you are going to be reminded that you are in a downswing right now. Negative thought breeds negative results. I know, because I have had it happen to me in the past. I sure as hell bet you weren't scared to get drawn out on when you were at your crest of dominance. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] As a matter of fact, you were probably frothing at the mouth every time you got dealt KK because instead of thinking "here we go again, an A is going to hit on the flop and I'm going to lose," you were probably thinking "hell yeah, flop me some quads." I used to be this guy KO, and it's not pretty. The funny thing is, almost everyone that makes an "omgdownswing" post IS this guy. They state the beats that they have taken, giving examples of classic longshot drawouts as evidence of their poor luck. However, you must realize that by admitting that their luck is poor, they are refusing to see a downswing for what it really is: a series of random, independent events that just don't go your way. They ask what they can do to stop it without realizing they can't. At its heart, poker is gambling, pure and simple. The only difference between poker and a game with a negative expectation is that you have the oppurtunity, should you make the correct decisions, to gamble with an edge. This edge is what separates you from the idiot who just drew out on you with the 29o that he cold-called your pre-flop raise with. While you are likely not going to get your money back from him (the fish ALWAYS leave before this happens, and it is the thing that annoys me most about poker), he is going to give it to somebody unless he wises up. That's just the way it works. If you make a decision with a positive expectation, that money has to come from somewhere. Someone else MUST lose for you to profit from a decision. Just don't let that someone be you. If you adhere to this, I am confident that you will be right back where you once were at 1/2 in less time than you think.