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#52
09-26-2005, 05:42 AM
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Re: I now fold AK a lot pf.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] this thread is useless without examples. can you show us when and how you folded AK tonight? [/ QUOTE ] you mean like this? Hand Number: 227,847,558 Table Number: 2,925,296 Event Started: Monday September 26th 2:00:02 AM CDT 2005 Game: No Limit Hold 'em Level VII: 100/200 Blinds (25 Minimum Chip) Average Stack: 3,000 (1,500 starting chips) Remaining Players: 10 (20 started) Seat 1 : Dr.SacStank starts with 8,350 Seat 2 : Upcomer starts with 1,150 Seat 3 : midan starts with 5,025 Seat 4 : LadyAce starts with 2,325 Seat 5 : MrTiLt starts with 725 Seat 6 : BRWBALDY starts with 375 Seat 7 : mongoosetx starts with 4,425 Seat 8 : SpotlightKid starts with 3,875 Seat 9 : contrapimp starts with 1,350 Seat 10 : m1illion starts with 2,500 Seat 2 : Upcomer has the dealer button >>>DEALING HOLE CARDS<<< m1illion dealt down Ac Kc midan posts the small blind 100 LadyAce posts the big blind 200 MrTiLt folds BRWBALDY folds mongoosetx folds SpotlightKid folds contrapimp raises 1,150 to 1,350 and is all-in m1illion folds Dr.SacStank calls 1,350 Upcomer folds midan folds LadyAce folds contrapimp cards were 9d 9s Dr.SacStank cards were Ad Kh >>>DEALING FLOP<<< [ 6h 4c 5c ] >>>DEALING TURN<<< [ Jd ] >>>DEALING RIVER<<< [ 4d ] contrapimp wins 3,000 with two pair, nines and fours >>>SUMMARY<<< Hand Ended: Monday September 26th 2:52:50 AM CDT 2005 Total Pot: 3,000 Board: [ 6h 4c 5c Jd 4d ] Seat 1 : Dr.SacStank lost 1,350, showed hand [ Ad Kh ] Seat 2 : Upcomer (button) did not bet, folded pre-flop Seat 3 : midan (small blind) lost 100, folded pre-flop Seat 4 : LadyAce (big blind) lost 200, folded pre-flop Seat 5 : MrTiLt did not bet, folded pre-flop Seat 6 : BRWBALDY did not bet, folded pre-flop Seat 7 : mongoosetx did not bet, folded pre-flop Seat 8 : SpotlightKid did not bet, folded pre-flop Seat 9 : contrapimp bet 1,350, won 3,000, net +1,650, showed hand [ 9d 9s ] Seat 10 : m1illion did not bet, folded pre-flop [/ QUOTE ] Wow - what a terrible fold [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] 
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#53
09-26-2005, 11:39 AM
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Re: I now fold AK a lot pf.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] this thread is useless without examples. can you show us when and how you folded AK tonight? [/ QUOTE ] you mean like this? Hand Number: 227,847,558 Table Number: 2,925,296 Event Started: Monday September 26th 2:00:02 AM CDT 2005 Game: No Limit Hold 'em Level VII: 100/200 Blinds (25 Minimum Chip) Average Stack: 3,000 (1,500 starting chips) Remaining Players: 10 (20 started) Seat 1 : Dr.SacStank starts with 8,350 Seat 2 : Upcomer starts with 1,150 Seat 3 : midan starts with 5,025 Seat 4 : LadyAce starts with 2,325 Seat 5 : MrTiLt starts with 725 Seat 6 : BRWBALDY starts with 375 Seat 7 : mongoosetx starts with 4,425 Seat 8 : SpotlightKid starts with 3,875 Seat 9 : contrapimp starts with 1,350 Seat 10 : m1illion starts with 2,500 Seat 2 : Upcomer has the dealer button >>>DEALING HOLE CARDS<<< m1illion dealt down Ac Kc midan posts the small blind 100 LadyAce posts the big blind 200 MrTiLt folds BRWBALDY folds mongoosetx folds SpotlightKid folds contrapimp raises 1,150 to 1,350 and is all-in m1illion folds Dr.SacStank calls 1,350 Upcomer folds midan folds LadyAce folds contrapimp cards were 9d 9s Dr.SacStank cards were Ad Kh >>>DEALING FLOP<<< [ 6h 4c 5c ] >>>DEALING TURN<<< [ Jd ] >>>DEALING RIVER<<< [ 4d ] contrapimp wins 3,000 with two pair, nines and fours >>>SUMMARY<<< Hand Ended: Monday September 26th 2:52:50 AM CDT 2005 Total Pot: 3,000 Board: [ 6h 4c 5c Jd 4d ] Seat 1 : Dr.SacStank lost 1,350, showed hand [ Ad Kh ] Seat 2 : Upcomer (button) did not bet, folded pre-flop Seat 3 : midan (small blind) lost 100, folded pre-flop Seat 4 : LadyAce (big blind) lost 200, folded pre-flop Seat 5 : MrTiLt did not bet, folded pre-flop Seat 6 : BRWBALDY did not bet, folded pre-flop Seat 7 : mongoosetx did not bet, folded pre-flop Seat 8 : SpotlightKid did not bet, folded pre-flop Seat 9 : contrapimp bet 1,350, won 3,000, net +1,650, showed hand [ 9d 9s ] Seat 10 : m1illion did not bet, folded pre-flop [/ QUOTE ] Yesterday, I had QQ on the button and UTG went All-in for 6 BBs and I folded with 11 BBs. BB called, and they were heads up. Board was A-7-6-6-3 and I would've lost to A-7. I made a fantastic fold. Do you see why? Brad
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#54
09-26-2005, 11:42 AM
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Re: I now fold AK a lot pf.
This is where I think you are wrong. You have one player covered. Putting your chips all in will create a side pot that you are still likely to take down. Even if the UTG player doubles up you stand to take down a much larger side pot, if not both of them. Your equity here is great. If you really think that the isolation play can be any 2 cards you almost HAVE to push here. The only time I would fold here is if I knew for a fact that the isolation play was coming from AA as then I'm only 10% to win, and how can you possibly know that for sure unless he turns his cards over before you act? Even against KK you have a 30% chance to spike your ace by the river. Versus a random hand, which you admit the all-in reraise could be, here's what pokerstove has to say:
2,097,572,400 games 4.656 secs 450,509,536 games/sec Board: Dead: equity (%) win (%) tie (%) Hand 1: 32.9554 % 32.13% 00.83% { random } Hand 2: 67.0446 % 66.22% 00.83% { AcKc } You are literally 2:1 against a random hand to win here. Folding AKs here is playing results oriented and, while it may snag you a few bottom end payouts, playing like this will rarely get you deep enough into the payout to claim a huge prize. When I'm in a tournament I'm playing for first prize. I've learned that in order to make it deep in the field you need to exploit every edge to get there. This is one where you miss out way too often by folding. Even if you're beat in THIS HAND, more often than not your AKs will hold up and it still stands that putting all your chips in is the right play here. I think a large majority of posters here would agree that even had you called and lost you still would have made the right play.
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#56
09-26-2005, 12:19 PM
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Re: I now fold AK a lot pf.
[ QUOTE ]
My read was right. [/ QUOTE ] I'm gonna be blunt: this, more than the rest of your post, is a sure sign of being a bad player. What read? The one where you put him on a pocket pair because that would be worse for you than when he had AQ? If you actually folded because you were terrified the big stack would overcall with QJ and therefore didn't want to have a sidepot of 3/4 of your stack as a 6x% favorite, quit poker.
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#57
09-26-2005, 12:25 PM
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Re: I now fold AK a lot pf.
[ QUOTE ]
I definitely don't raise a raiser, always just call [/ QUOTE ] In a cash game with 50 BBs, reraising with AK is the standard line. The idea of reraising with AK is that if you only reraise with like QQ+, AK or so, QQ is actually a dog to your reraising range, as is AK. While few are folding either of these holdings preflop in party 11s, you're still folding out a fair number of PPs, and that FE is way more than enough to overcome the fact that you're a very slight dog to 33+. Arguing that it's "not a made hand" is just nonsense. It's rather hard to describe what a poker hand is probabilistically without using some annoying math jargon (they're really just a series of probability density functions that themselves describe probabilities [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]), but in a very simplified form, a poker hand is just its % chance of being favorite against specific ranges of hands on the flop, turn, and river. Made hands and unmade hands are just concepts to keep in mind to simplify things--but preflop they're basically crap, and in some cases they're crap on the flop too, i.e. you hold two overs and an OESFD, which is a godly unmade hand. Here's a nice article on the subject. In a tournament, your main reason to smooth call with AK preflop should be to keep the pot small against opponents who give you little to no FE or because your stack size makes a reraise awkward.
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#58
09-26-2005, 12:28 PM
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Re: I now fold AK a lot pf.
stop trying to convince him clearly hes not going to have any of it...
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#59
09-26-2005, 12:28 PM
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Re: I now fold AK a lot pf.
[ QUOTE ]
My rule with AK: I won't risk my tournament life with it if I have a decent stack and someone infront has wen't all-in.. I will however always call a raise with it and see a flop, only way I lay it down is raise-re-raise from tight players I definitely don't raise a raiser, always just call and I can either outplay him or he can outplay me on the flop.. no re-raising with non-made hands [/ QUOTE ] Ugh. Yeah, AK is a great hand to "see a flop with". No you don't want to see all 5 cards, and you DEFINITELY don't want someone laying down mid-low PPs. EGADS! What if you got someone with a dominated hand to put in more chips?! So much that can go wrong when you re-raise with AK! (Switch on your sarcasm detectors). Again: ugh, ick and vomit all rolled into one The main circumstance where i will play it softly is OOP (usually in the blind spots) where I prefer to keep the pots small. In EP I'll be opening for a raise; in LP I'll either be opening for a raise or often re-raising if it was raised in front of me. Smooth-calling should far and away be the exception, not the rule.
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#60
09-26-2005, 12:36 PM
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Re: I now fold AK a lot pf.
[ QUOTE ]
stop trying to convince him clearly hes not going to have any of it... [/ QUOTE ] I'd love to see another post from m1llion that says the same, but he did make an open invitation to show him how he was wrong. He said if we can do this he's all ears, which does show a small indication that it's not like talking to a wall. Still you're probably right that it's an exercise in futility. As if this forum doesn't produce enough winners that people still doubt the long time experts is beyond me... I love all your advice - just a short few months lurking and posting here has increased my ITM% and ROI immensely.
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