Slow Rollers

that's great. they deserve it. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Sakuraba]

This is blatant cheating. The other players sided with you because they are stupid or do not like the player and have no ethics (or both).

If it could still be reasonably proven what his cards were and you knew that the dealer intentionally mucked them, the slow roller should have been awarded the pot.

If you have a real problem with the players slow rolling, just don't ask them to play next time. Intentionally mucking their cards when they do not protect them is worse behavior than slow rolling.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

I think this guy got what he had coming, but what the dealer has coming involves a brick and a guy waiting by his car.

[JonPKibble]

[ QUOTE ]
This is blatant cheating. The other players sided with you because they are stupid or do not like the player and have no ethics (or both).

If it could still be reasonably proven what his cards were and you knew that the dealer intentionally mucked them, the slow roller should have been awarded the pot.

If you have a real problem with the players slow rolling, just don't ask them to play next time. Intentionally mucking their cards when they do not protect them is worse behavior than slow rolling.

[/ QUOTE ]

The OP made it clear that they were warned on several occasions, yet still continued this asinine behavior. Usually the house has the final say, that is all that really matters.

I agree that it was probably a bit unfair, but when you act like an ass you have it coming. Try that slowrolling crap in a casino and see what happens.

[Sakuraba]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
This is blatant cheating. The other players sided with you because they are stupid or do not like the player and have no ethics (or both).

If it could still be reasonably proven what his cards were and you knew that the dealer intentionally mucked them, the slow roller should have been awarded the pot.

If you have a real problem with the players slow rolling, just don't ask them to play next time. Intentionally mucking their cards when they do not protect them is worse behavior than slow rolling.



The OP made it clear that they were warned on several occasions, yet still continued this asinine behavior. Usually the house has the final say, that is all that really matters.

I agree that it was probably a bit unfair, but when you act like an ass you have it coming. Try that slowrolling crap in a casino and see what happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

The house should not have the final say to cheat. If they house wants to ask them to leave, that is perfectly acceptable. Don't get me wrong, I think these guys are jerks. I just don't think that makes it okay to cheat them. I assumed the OP was trying to determine if the dealers actions were justified by the slow rollers prior actions. The only way that this would not be unethical was if a specific house rule had been established to discourage slow rolling. For example, if they established a rule that a player must reveal his hand within 10 seconds or it is considered mucked. Obviously, this rule would have to be in place before the start of the hand.

Basically, the dealer was mad at these players so he decided to cheat them. This is clearly wrong. That the player was also wrong for slow rolling does not change this.

If someone did this in a casino, the worst that the casino would do is to make them leave. What more do you think would happen?

[JonPKibble]

Don't get me wrong, I do think the measure was a bit drastic. I just don't think they were going to learn their lesson any other way. I pretty much agree with what you are saying though.

[smoore]

Holy nit. I guess I shouldn't let them grind me down, I'll go ahead and voice my opinion, no matter my outburst in that other thread.

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To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.

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Guess where I got that?

Show one card and sit back? That's a muck. No arguments, it's a muck. Table your hand or forfeit your entire interest in the pot.

Slow rolling is annoying but if we're talking about rules and cheating lets go ahead and get all the rules out there:

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You must protect your own hand at all times. Your cards may be protected with your hands, a chip, or other object placed on top of them. If you fail to protect your hand, you will have no redress if it becomes fouled or the dealer accidentally kills it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Same source, pretty clear rule. Had he wanted to play both cards he could have tabled both of them or turned one up and protected the other. He didn't. Someone shot an angle on him and he lost. The slow-roller did not get cheated, everything was within the boundaries of Robert's Rules of Poker.

Angle shot? Yes.

Cheated? No.

[Sakuraba]

[ QUOTE ]
Holy nit. I guess I shouldn't let them grind me down, I'll go ahead and voice my opinion, no matter my outburst in that other thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

You called me a nit. You are obviously cool.

It is a bit ironic though since you are the one quoting rules and trying to apply them to the letter rather than just using common sense. In case you are not aware, that is the kind of stuff nits do.

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.


Guess where I got that?

Show one card and sit back? That's a muck. No arguments, it's a muck. Table your hand or forfeit your entire interest in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

The player was obviously intendeding to show both cards. The dealer intentionally took them before he could. If the dealer really thought he was just showing 1, this rule would apply. My interpretation of the OP's story is that the dealer knew the player was slowrolling and thus knew that he intended to show the second card. Have you ever played in a casino? When a player shows one card, the dealer always tells the player that he needs to show both cards. He does not try to grab the cards as fast as he can and quote the player rule 17.g.4.2.



[ QUOTE ]

Slow rolling is annoying but if we're talking about rules and cheating lets go ahead and get all the rules out there:

Quote:
You must protect your own hand at all times. Your cards may be protected with your hands, a chip, or other object placed on top of them. If you fail to protect your hand, you will have no redress if it becomes fouled or the dealer accidentally kills it.


Same source, pretty clear rule. Had he wanted to play both cards he could have tabled both of them or turned one up and protected the other. He didn't. Someone shot an angle on him and he lost. The slow-roller did not get cheated, everything was within the boundaries of Robert's Rules of Poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is not clear at all in this case. It specifically says "the dealer accidentally kills it". Well, the dealer intentionally killed it when he knew that the player intended to show both cards. Sure, the player should protect his hand, but how far are you going to take this when someone is trying to intentionally muck his hand. Should he punch the dealer when he tries to reach for his cards?


[ QUOTE ]

Angle shot? Yes.

Cheated? No.


[/ QUOTE ]

Call it whatever you want, it is still unethical.

The bottom line is that the player was clearly going to show both cards and the dealer knew this, but still intentionally mucked the players hand. Clearly, this is unethical on the part of the dealer. The dealer is expected to be impartial and not to act in the hand based on his personal feeling for the players. The player should have protected his hand, but that does not make the actions of the dealer ethical.

It is really hard for me to understand how anyone here can look at this situation and not realize that the slowroller is a jerk and the dealer acted unethically. Both of these things are pretty clear from the OP's version of events.

[JonPKibble]

Basically this is a matter of "Two wrongs don't make a right". However, if I saw this happen, I woulda laughed like crazy.

[Sakuraba]

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However, if I saw this happen, I woulda laughed like crazy.

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Me too.