Late in tourney...10-10 on button...4 limpers....call or raise?

Is there any software you guys use to post hands for review that show the suit graphic, or something? In some pool forums, there are some crude programs that will give the layout in text and convert to graphics, so not sure if I am out of my element just posting a PP transcript...just let me know (adding a poll for practice, too, as this is my first post).

A little background...cheapo low-limit multi-table Party tourney. I took one down Sunday killing time before my weekly, so decided that these were great practice wading through a field of 2,500 calling stations...I ended up taking 37th in this one, as I lost with AA two hands in a row with no hands in-between...with them paying for draws, of course...wasn't slowplaying getting fancy this late in the tourney...

Anyway, for this hand, I was on the button with wired 10s...pretty agressive table (as expected for a cheapo tourney)...1st two guys who limp in have me covered and fire into the pot on command like I have been doing...both early position...another limper enters...to me on the button, I simply call as:

1.) Hoping for no paint
2.) Hoping for a hidden set to say, "man down." [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

My friend said raise here to see where you are at; I say that even on the button with wired 10's, with 3-4 limpers in the pot, all from early position and having me covered, I had to respect their hands and simply call it hoping for the dream flop that came.

I liked the flop, as it has the flush draw sitting there, so figure I would get action not so much from the overcards, but from the guys willing to pay for their 35% chance for newbie fame , so I was pushing in.

[Caveat] pay no attention to the outcome...was a stupid runner runner two-pair beat (not that her bet with 3 overcards was dumb, but I am not sure if here calling my all-in was correct...even as committed as she was with all the people in the hand...I'd let that bad boy go from her position), but I am just questioning my play:

To call or raise?

If 1, maybe 2 entered, I think I would have raised 3x BB, perhaps, which was half my stack...would easily get away from it if big paint fell...but did not want to chop a leg off with so many in the pot and 16 potential overcards looking me up.

Here's what we got:


4000/8000 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) - Wed Sep 21 01:40:44 EDT 2005
Table Multi-Table(464181) Table 4 (Real Money) -- Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: BrandAsh25 (17040)
Seat 2: jimfla54 (79833)
Seat 3: ramblinrec (31546)
Seat 4: Crime29 (95600)
Seat 5: flushwins111 (6772)
Seat 6: Basque (6138)
Seat 7: xxxGaltxxx (45472) (3rd in total chips in the tourney...of 2,500 people, we are down to about 50 at this point..all money)
Seat 8: Love_2_Poker (27819)
Seat 9: K_Racegrl (32132)
Seat 10: Chipset21 (21792)
Love_2_Poker posts small blind (2000)
K_Racegrl posts big blind (4000)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to xxxGaltxxx [ Tc, Ts ]
Chipset21 folds.
BrandAsh25 folds.
jimfla54 calls (4000)
ramblinrec calls (4000)
Crime29 calls (4000)
flushwins111 folds.
Basque folds.
xxxGaltxxx calls (4000) (so many callers, I smooth called on the button and didn't get fancy, as there are clearly aces and overcards out there, so wanted to take a flop...if 10's are overcards, or if I turn the set, I was moving)
Love_2_Poker calls (2000)
K_Racegrl checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 4s, 3s, 5c ]
Love_2_Poker checks.
K_Racegrl bets (9800)
xxxGaltxxx: zoom zoom
jimfla54 folds.
ramblinrec calls (9800)
Crime29 raises (91600) to 91600
Crime29 is all-In.
xxxGaltxxx calls (41472) (perhaps I should have given him created for an over pair, but he was very aggressive stealing, which matches his moniker of crime, so I put him on Ax over, so called)
xxxGaltxxx is all-In.
Love_2_Poker folds.
K_Racegrl calls (18332)
K_Racegrl is all-In.
ramblinrec calls (17746)
ramblinrec is all-In.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 7c ] (look what I found, says Racegrl)
** Dealing River ** : [ Ah ] (look what I found, says Racegrl)
Creating Main Pot with $134184 with ramblinrec
Creating Side Pot 1 with $1758 with K_Racegrl
Creating Side Pot 2 with $26680 with xxxGaltxxx
Creating Side Pot 3 with $50128 with Crime29
** Summary **
Main Pot: 134184 | Side Pot 1: 1758 | Side Pot 2: 26680 | Side Pot 3: 50128
Board: [ 4s 3s 5c 7c Ah ]
BrandAsh25 balance 17040, didn't bet (folded)
jimfla54 balance 75833, lost 4000 (folded)
ramblinrec balance 0, lost 31546 [ 5s As ] [ two pairs, aces and fives -- As,Ah,7c,5s,5c ]
Crime29 balance 50128, bet 95600, collected 50128, lost -45472 [ Js Ks ] [ high card ace -- Ah,Ks,Js,7c,5c ]
flushwins111 balance 6772, didn't bet (folded)
Basque balance 6138, didn't bet (folded)
xxxGaltxxx balance 26680, bet 45472, collected 26680, lost -18792 [ Tc Ts ] [ a pair of tens -- Ah,Tc,Ts,7c,5c ]
Love_2_Poker balance 23819, lost 4000 (folded)
K_Racegrl balance 135942, bet 32132, collected 135942, net +103810 [ Ac 7h ] [ two pairs, aces and sevens -- Ac,Ah,7h,7c,5c ]
Chipset21 balance 21792, didn't bet (folded)

[ghostface]

3 BB is 12k. Thats what you needed to raise to.

This is actually a great example of why you need to raise TT pre-flop. A5s would likely fold to 3 or 4 times the big blind.

[kuro]

This is a very very easy preflop push. It's not even close.

yea i'd raise to like 20K or so, make it really hard for them to call..

[subzero]

[ QUOTE ]
yea i'd raise to like 20K or so, make it really hard for them to call..

[/ QUOTE ]
20K is about half of your stack. You might as well push and make it really really hard for them to call.

[ QUOTE ]
3 BB is 12k. Thats what you needed to raise to.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what, fold to a flop bet when any over comes? There is 16,000 in the pot when it gets to OP. He has 45472 behind (M=7.5). A 12k raise will not fold out all the limpers when the pot is this big, but it will pot commit OP with more than 1/4th of his stack in the middle and 16 scare cards to come on the flop.

On the other hand, 10s are very likely to be the best hand here, and a push might easily take down a huge pot (30% of hero's stack) uncontested, or be a slight to huge favorite over the range of likely callers suggested by someone who will call off all their chips with two overcards to the flop....

I push preflop here every time.

yea that's true..

[ziggydonks]

i think jamming it in here is the only play. Theres 18k in dead money out there, which would increase your stack by like 40%. I assume none of these players are real tricky, seeing as how it is a tiny tournament, so the chances of them having JJ-AA are slim. However, the chances of them having 99-22 are high, and an overbet push could induce a call from shortstacks with medium pairs looking for a double up. Basically, you steal 4.5BB if you push and everyone folds, and if somone calls, I can't see you being worse than a coinflip,if not 4:1 ahead. Looks +EV to me...

[ QUOTE ]
This is actually a great example of why you need to raise TT pre-flop. A5s would likely fold to 3 or 4 times the big blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, this was my point...knowing that they have A5off, I am sure they would fold to the raise...but I assumed more than A5 given their position...guess I gave them too much credit for having a hand.

That's what I was trying to hash out...without knowing they had A5, I thought I had to assume better from 3 limpers...clearly overcards are out there and if the flop came with one, I was faced with a decision I would have rather not made that late into the tourney.

I am going to hit the books for a couple weeks on medium pairs and see if I can arrive at the unanimous decision at which you guys arrived...was close to me, so I have to address this weakness in my game [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]