Okay call down w/ TT?

Megenoita · #1 09-20-2005, 02:01 AM

Villain here is 42/13. I find sometimes people cap "for fun", so I thought I should call this one down. Thoughts?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, Button caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

ThePenguin · #2 09-20-2005, 03:28 AM

You need a better reason than "I find sometimes people cap "for fun"", to justify calling down this hand. It takes a rare breed to cap for "fun", and a 42/13 doesn't seem like the type. I often look at post-flop aggression stats to help me gauge what hands players are capable of capping , but that's neither here nor there. Keep in mind that your opponnents are more likely to cap on the button in this blind steal situation if they perceive that you are likely to "resteal" with hands that you typically would not three-bet. What would Button cap with here if he thought you were trying to resteal with a hand like AJ-A9, KQ-K10, or mid PP's? Let's say AA-99, AK-A10. You are ahead of four of these hands.If you play your hand agressively, you might be able to fold out a better hand like JJ and QQ. I think calling down just to see what your opponnent has is bad in this situation. I would bet out on the flop, call if raised, and lead the turn again on the 3. I'm folding if he raises again on the turn. On the river I'm check-folding if he calls the turn. Another play I would consider is betting the flop and three-betting if raised. If he caps the flop, it's an easy fold. If he calls the three-bet, bet out the turn and fold to a raise, or check-fold the river (especially when the over-card hits) if called.

Megenoita · #3 09-20-2005, 03:34 AM

What I mean by my "caps for fun" observation is that I find that people who play and raise a lot of hands, like this guy, often cap not because their hand is a cappable hand, but because they know small pp's and broadways are 3-betting, and they want to retake the initiative with their mid-pp or broadways. It doesn't necessarily have to be a stronger range of hands that they have when they do this; they just have to feel like capping with any hand they'd raise with when they are 3-bet.

I thought about doing the flop bet/3-bet, or turn raise, etc., but I'm not folding a better hand, ever. QQ isn't folding in this pot. Calling down is the cheapest way to see the river and he could very well have a lower pp or A high.

I'm not trying to sound dogmatic...feel free to critique my thinking.

Thanks,
M

ThePenguin · #4 09-20-2005, 04:35 AM

Sorry about the somewhat obvious pre-flop stuff in my original post. The line that you took is one that I used to take, but am getting out of the habit of taking now. It could be optimal (I'm not sure); I've just been trying to rethink some situations to improve my winrate. I still think you are better off trying to fold out people in this situation because J,Q,A are all scare cards. I wish you had included villains post-flop aggression, because I think this information could save or win you money in this situation. Without that kind of read though, I think you're line is OK, especially if you're trying to get a read on your opponnent. However, I like the bet/call flop, bet/fold turn against most opponnents in this situation. You'll gain whatever small fold equity there is on the flop and turn, and save .5BB to 1BB if you fold the turn rather than showing down.

On a side note, you said, "I find that people who play and raise a lot of hands, like this guy, often cap not because their hand is a cappable hand..." Even though this guy plays alot of hands, a PFR of 13 is hardly a lot. I usually give this player the benefit of the doubt when he three-bets or caps.

I really wish more posters would respond, this seems like an interesting hand to me, and I'm sure more info could help me learn something as well.

bank · #5 09-20-2005, 04:42 AM

I think flop/turn is ok (although sometimes I c/f flop). River is very bad card. You are now only ahead of AQ, 88, or 99. I think I can find a fold on the river.

BreakEvenPlayer · #6 09-20-2005, 03:40 PM

Penguin, your reasoning is solid, but jesus christ I love seeing showdowns. and against loose players I love seeing showdowns even more. the OP played this hand very passively, but this is the cheapest way to see a showdown.

the thing is... those PFR numbers can be very misleading. I've played with guys who shorthanded have numbers like 19/9, and they raise A6o UTG. I've also played with guys who are 50/2, but will never raise a pocket pair.

with that PFR of 13, we really don't know what this guy is capping. i believe this guy is capable of betting the whole way with a pocket pair below ours or maybe an Ax that hit the x. i call this down, why make the hand difficult against a crappy player who's decisions aren't always logical?

Megenoita · #7 09-20-2005, 10:14 PM

I have to apologize because the read I posted on vilain isn't accurate. I should have said he's 42/13 after 39 hands. That's like an hour of live play, so it's an okay read, but nothing conclusive can really be drawn from that data. If I had these same stats on him after 400 hands, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt for the cap.

As it turned out, he had capped with A6o and I had put him on A high or a lower pp, and MHIG.

M

BreakEvenPlayer · #8 09-21-2005, 01:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
As it turned out, he had capped with A6o and I had put him on A high or a lower pp, and MHIG.

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't "put" him on A high or a lower PP. You can't see his f-ing cards man. You just realized that these hands were in his range of possible hands for this situation, thus making your calldown correct. He easily could have had you beat here, don't be results oriented.

einbert · #9 09-21-2005, 02:48 AM

I like your play on the flop and turn. I have a hard time swallowing the river call though. The river card makes it both more likely that he has you beat and less likely for him to bet a lower PP than yours for value. It also makes it less likely he'll fire a third barrel with a hand like ace high (this could be wrong, it might make it more likely and even more correct for him to fire again as a bluff if he has ace high).

Unfortunately I don't have the time or means to analyze it thoroughly right now (no pokerstove since I'm on a public computer), but I like playing it the way you did until the river, and then check/folding.

einbert · #10 09-21-2005, 02:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
As it turned out, he had capped with A6o and I had put him on A high or a lower pp, and MHIG.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, nice read. He&#12288;must not have been wearing his sunglasses.