What decides moving up in limits?

[TheHammer24]

I epitomize risk averse. I'm always fearful I'll ruin a good thing. I moved up to 2/4 about 1.5 months ago. I have about 7k hands under my belt and I've about 1,000 dollars. Thats great money for me, the unemployed college student. I can be complacent with that.

However, it is certainly possible for me to be making more. 3/6 is much harder, but I feel really comfortable 2/4 as if I am one of the better players at the table.

My poker bank roll started at $25 and over a year it's about 4500. I have the bank roll to play 3/6, but that can't be the sole determinant of whether I move up.

Another thing is I datamine 2/4 a fair amount, but I have 0 hands at 3/6 mined. Seeing as table selection is one of the biggest advantages to my game, this could be detrimental. How important is it to mine before you move up in limits?

I am not looking for an answer to my question of whether or not I, personally, should move up in limits. However, I am curious as to what you take into consideration when you move up. How important is datamining? Whats the most important consideration: winrate, comfort level, bankroll?

[sy_or_bust]

Start datamining now, sit in some juicy tables once in a while, and see how you feel about the play and the psychological $$ difference.

[krubban]

I also had an obscenely large roll for 2/4, over 10k but it's hard to leave the place where you feel comfortable.
I withdrew most of my roll and left about 5k and jumped directly to 5/10.
So far I've been running down a cliff and have about 300BBs left but luckily the money doesn't mean much to me since i still live at home and doesn't feel pressed to make a certain figure every month.
If you haven't had a downswing yet at 2/4 i recommend staying there for a while longer so you get used to the bigger swings. It can be hard to take a 150BB downswing when you just moved up to 3/6 and the money feels much larger.

My reason for moving up was that I felt I had reached a plateu in my game and wasn't improving anymore. I would very much like to reach the 15/30s and up one day but in order to do that you can't just grind 2/4 all your life so I decided to make the jump and stay at 5/10 until i get used to it and can show a decent winrate.

I think i would log at least 20k hands at 2/4 before making the move though, but it all depends on your psyche and if you believe you can beat 3/6 now. Also start mining 3/6 during the nights and days when you're not playing so you don't move up in the dark. You usually spot most of the multitabling TAGs very fast and get a decent sample on them.

[Aces McGee]

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How important is it to mine before you move up in limits?


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It's not important. At all. This datamining stuff has gone too far, in my opinion, and it drives me crazy. There are plenty of successful poker players on this board who don't even use PokerTracker, much less wait until they have 100k hands worth of data before jumping in and starting to play. Ditto for live games, obviously.

If you have the roll for it and feel like moving up, do it. Play fewer tables at first. Start with one. Observe your opponents. It won't take you long to figure out who's over-aggressive, who plays too many hands, who's tight, etc. Then adjust your game accordingly. In other words:

Play poker.

I don't mean to pick on you, but I think it's ridiculous that you're actually getting advice to datamine before moving up. I'm actually of the opinion that stat programs like PokerTracker hinder growth in one's game (I use it, but mainly to track my own play and provide the board with "reads" for when I post hands, never to look at an opponents stats during the hand), because there's a tendency to rely on them too much.

It's a good tool, and it may add to your bottom line in the short term. But you'll get a feel for your opponents pretty quickly, and I really don't think it's worth waiting for.

-McGee

[flair1239]

Just make it simple. Move up, and play until you sustain a loss heavy enough to move you down.

I took a shot at 5/10 with $4500, lost $250 my first night, but kept at it and never had to step back.

With your $4500, I would just move up, if you lose 200BB you are still well rolled for 2/4.

Although with only 7,000 hands at 2/4, I would suggest sticking it out for a little longer... say another 10K and see how you feel.

[ApolloQuiet]

1) Bankroll
Don't go up in levels and 'take a stab' at it. Have a solid bankroll, 400+BB. Really put in an effort to play at the next level, even if you hit a downswing right off the bat. There is a difference in levels as you move up, and if you hit a 150 BB downswing right off the bat, you want to be able to still have enough of a roll to accomodate. Could be bad luck, could be you aren't adjusting properly to the new level.

2)Look at your previous level numbers. If they are solid, ie winning 2+BB/100 at $2/4 over a signifigant amount of hands, good VPIP, Aggro, then you can move up with confidence, knowing that you have done well in the past, and that you should continue to do well at the new level.

3) Be honest with yourself. Confidence is one thing, cockiness is another. Learn from things that happen to you at the new level. If something happens that confuses you, post the hand and see what others here think. I found myself getting bad beats, and I shrugged it off as the villian was a schmuck, where after further review, his play wasn't as bad. There are more thinking players at $3/6 vs $2/4 and you have to adjust.

[silkyslim]

wow i think you are runnning good at 2/4, no offense. But keep up the good work. Also, I have NEVER datamined. Is this worth it, and how do you go about it?

[Bluffoon]

Bankroll. Period. I take shots when I have enough bankroll for the shot and enough to continue at my regular level. Playing at a higher level against better players is a good way to put your game to the test. It will highlight your weaknesses and even if you do not succeed will provide you with a list of things to go back and work on. If you have the bankroll take the shot. You will learn.

[Harv72b]

Datamining is useful, but not absolutely necessary. Those who say it is not important at all are dead wrong--any information that you can get on your opponents is important. Well, any poker-related information...I don't much care if the guy sitting across the table from me has a birthmark shaped like Elvis on his left buttock. So, yeah...especially since table selection is such a big part of your game & you're used to sitting at a table with decent reads on most of your opponents, start doing some 3/6 datamining now. Better yet, watch a few tables as you're collecting data & see what the play is like--while 3/6 is different & much more difficult than 2/4 (on average), it's not an entirely different game. You may be suprised by how comfortable you feel with it after watching 30 minutes' worth of hands.

As for what I take into consideration:

-Confidence. Even more so than bankroll, to some extent--it's obviously not smart to sit down at a 30/60 game when your entire bankroll is $1000, but if you're talking about having like 250 BBs for the limit and you're utterly confident in your ability to beat it, taking a shot is not a bad thing. On the other hand, even if you have 1000 BBs for the new limit, if you're playing scared you are probably not going to have a very good experience there.

-Bankroll. You have to weigh the potential for increased profits vs. the higher risk to your 'roll. If you have the 300 BBs for the next level, it's very easy & relatively risk-free to set aside 50 BBs or so to play with, and drop back down to your old limit if you lose that. If you only have 100 BBs for the new level, then even losing one 25 BB buyin could be disastrous to your bankroll.

-Skill level. While your win rate can be a good indicator of this, it isn't always. The gods of variance could frown upon a player with world-class skill and lead him to a 25,000 hand sample at 2/4 with a "mere" 1.1 BB/100 win rate. On the other hand, another player who has no business sitting on even a .50/1 table could hit an incredible run of cards (or two) and end up with a WR of 3 BB/100 over the same sample size.

It's difficult to quantify your own skill level, but I think a lot of comes simply from how comfortable you feel at the tables, how confident you are in your answers when you respond to posts on here (it helps if others are in agreement [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]), and how others respond to the hands you post here.

As far as making the actual jump, I believe that it's important not to move to a new level, so much as take a shot at it. That subtle difference in thinking can mean a world of difference if you hit a bad run to start out, as it's a lot more difficult for most people to admit failure when "moving up" than it is when "taking a shot".

What I would do (and have done in the past) is take a set amount of your bankroll and give it a shot. Even better, follow one or two of your 2/4 buddies up to 3/6 and sit at a table with them there--really bad players notoriously switch limits, either in an effort to chase losses or after an upswing which suddenly has them sitting on more money than they're used to. Having a familiar, bad player at your table is a huge leg up on your confidence factor.

[Keres]

[ QUOTE ]
Whats the most important consideration: winrate, comfort level, bankroll?

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I think there's two schools of thought. The "take a shot when you have the bankroll" camp and the "I'll move up when I know I'm ready". The first may lead to instructive (but expensive) lessons - which will help your game - but could kill your bankroll. The second may slow your learning progress, you might be leaving money on the table, but your bankroll should be more secure. You've got to choose whats psychologically comfortable for you.

As for moving up, I'm in a similar situation. My thought process is that I'm at 3/6 and just starting to think about moving up to 5/10 - maybe in 3-4 months. 25,000+ hands - winrate of around 2.4bb/100. When I first sit down (online) there's always a few minutes of trepidation before I settle down and realize there's not a whole lot at 3/6 that worries me. My bankroll could probably even support a stab at 10/20 but I can't see playing there when I would be significant dog.

Before I move up to 5/10 I've got to take care of some major holes in my game. My blind stealing sucks (not nearly enough even with the 1/3 structure), my overall aggro needs to be higher (its a little under 2), pfr% is low (more blind stealing will help) and I still have the occasional boneheaded chip spewing hand. Value betting the river (ie stop seeing "monsters under the bed") is something I've worked on and was a major leak for me - and a lot of other low limit players. A 3bb/100 winrate at 3/6 should be achievable. It pains me that I'm not that close to it.

Another obvious thing I've experienced is that every mistake gets magnified at a higher limit. If you know there are holes in your game you might as well work at them at lower limits when they won't cost you as much.

As krubban said, when you feel you've reached a plateau at the limit you're at, then move up. For me, I've got a while before I hit that plateau at 3/6.

re: Datamining at 3/6. I don't think its that necessary. But perhaps thats another leak in my game.