Heinous River Folds

Bodhi · #1 09-12-2005, 01:21 PM

Ok, so I have a confession to make: Over my first 28k hands at 2/4 my W$SD% is almost 57.5%, and my WSD% is 27%. Somehow I've managed to win 2bb/100 hands, but I really need to improve some aspects of my game before I consider moving up to 3/6. The evidence says that I really don't like calling down with marginal hands, I prefere to fold pocket-pairs readily when there are overcards present, where the only indication that I'm beat is that my opponent has been calling my bets. Other aspects of my game have improved a lot since moving up from 1/2: I steal blinds more often, I defend my bb more often, I raise more preflop, and I peel more on the flop when I should instead of folding. Still, I can't shake the feeling that I am a nit. In the spirit of this discussion, I'm going to start posting hands that I consider heinous river folds.

Edit: For those of you looking for leaks in your game, this is where you should start.

Exhibit A:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

The BB is a fish, 38%, 2%, .7. My notes say something like: cc KTo, won't raise top pair(x2), raised 77 pf in mp after 2 limpers

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
5 folds, CO raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (10 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero folds. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Final Pot: 11 BB

---------------------------------------

Exhibit B:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Villain, the CO, is sort of tight, around 20.5%, 0pfr, 1.5 af, but only over 24 hands, so I don't really have much of a read. Oh my god this hand sucks.

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 folds, CO calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB calls.

River: (9.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, SB folds, Hero folds. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

hellite · #2 09-12-2005, 01:59 PM

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

qu(n)it folding so much!

sy_or_bust · #3 09-12-2005, 02:07 PM

These 2 hands aren't your problem.

In A, BB capped preflop and raised the flop - all of your information pegs this as a big hand. You call the turn with the heart redraw, and fold the river UI because you know well enough that BB doesn't play AK this way. You can call the river, but the fold isn't heinous at all - it is probably best.

In B, you got 2 calls on a K43 board. Once the heart hits on the turn, it makes sense to bet to avoid giving a free card to hearts, but consider what hands a tight CO can possibly coldcall + call the flop with that aren't better than yours right now, combined with the chance that a river heart falls or SB beats you already. I'd check/fold the turn a lot.

bakku · #4 09-12-2005, 02:16 PM

if i'm not check/folding the flop in hand 1 i'm folding to the raise against this guy

hand 2 looks fine

Akimka · #5 09-12-2005, 02:18 PM

I think you played this two hands fine. I suffer from same trouble as you - about 55-57 W$SD and think this problem lies in underestimating implied odds of big but longshot draw and inadequate evaluation AK,AQ unimproved power? What do you think about it? May be someone can provide good played unimproved AK/AQ here? I really want to see it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

sy_or_bust · #6 09-12-2005, 02:20 PM

The pot is way too big to consider check/folding or bet/folding that flop in Hand A. After Hero bets and gets raised, it's laying around 15-1. Many loose-passives will make a free card play w/ AK anyway (which you have to allow them to get away with often, owing to the tiny range).

bakku · #7 09-12-2005, 02:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is way too big to consider check/folding or bet/folding that flop in Hand A. After Hero bets and gets raised, it's laying around 15-1. Many loose-passives will make a free card play w/ AK anyway (which you have to allow them to get away with often, owing to the tiny range).

[/ QUOTE ]

not someone with a 2% PFR and 0.7 AF. im more inclined to c/f this flop than b/f. but i think if you bet you have like the easiest fold in the world

Bodhi · #8 09-12-2005, 03:04 PM

I find this really surprising. Before I start looking for times to showdown AK high, I'd like to find pairs that are worth a showdown first.