My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising) - Page 4

jrz1972 · #31 09-09-2005, 03:49 PM

Well, first of all, UI overcards are not raising if I bet and checking through if I check. That's inconsistent. You and I both know that UI overs (villain's most likely holdin) will often simply call a bet but will bet if checked to. Yes, I know there are some opponents who don't play that way, but most do.

I agree that we should not be sad about gutshots calling. Since that was my main point in this thread, I'm not sure why you're so worked up over it.

If you agree that this hand is really just about value-betting and not so much about protecting your hand against threats that are very unlikely to be present, I'm not sure what the big deal is. Either way the OP is mistaken in his focus on BB.

numeri · #32 09-09-2005, 03:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is Button with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (8 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (8 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, CO calls, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 folds,MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (7BB) J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players) 
MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO calls.

River: (10 BB) 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players) 
MP3 bets, CO folds, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's tough that you have crappy relative position on the flop bettor, but I think this is find.

I almost responded by blasting your turn and river play - I didn't see any red, so I thought you'd checked it through! [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

@bsolute_luck · #33 09-09-2005, 03:53 PM

totally different situation if trying to compare to the OP.

and yes it is fine. and yes you are being result-oriented in your thinking. it is easy to say "oh i should have just called" when you rivered your full house. but it sucks when you let 56 stay in the hand and get their turned gutshot, or let A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] stayin in cheaply and get runner-runner [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]s when they would have folded the flop.

besides: flush draws and OESD and other draws will pay double to stay in the hand, so make them. plus if someone thinks you're on a flush draw, they may bet back into you again on the turn (or get 2 pair and c/r you), allowing you to get even more bets.

jrz1972 · #34 09-09-2005, 03:54 PM

I would play this hand the same way. You've got a guy who likes his hand enough to bet, another player whose already called, and there's a decent chance somebody is on a diamond draw and will give you action. Might as well raise it up.

@bsolute_luck · #35 09-09-2005, 03:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you agree that this hand is really just about value-betting and not so much about protecting your hand against threats that are very unlikely to be present, I'm not sure what the big deal is. Either way the OP is mistaken in his focus on BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh i'm not worked up. i'm merely suggesting that you can value bet AND protect better by betting out.

lautzutao · #36 09-09-2005, 04:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
oh i'm not worked up. i'm merely suggesting that you can value bet AND protect better by betting out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright, I'm really tired, misreading posts AND performing the dreaded results oriented thinking, but how does value betting this flop protect my hand? What if everyone had just called...?

I understand that checking here and possibly having everyone check around is devastating. But given the preflop raise here, isn't it safe to assume that he would have bet this out? Wouldn't this have been more profitable AND possibly protect my hand should the PFR decide to make it a 3-bet?

I understand I'm a HUGE favorite to win this hand, regardless of who and what calls me, AKs FD, other FDs, OESD's, 2 pair, etc...wouldn't checkraising have been better under these circumstances?

#37 09-09-2005, 04:23 PM

I think that in this case that the bet/3bet line worked to perfection. But I think it really depends on the aggression of the PFR. b/c while it sucks to have it checked through it equally sucks to not get raised on the flop. I think that in a lot of cases the c/r is the best bet b/c it puts more money in the pot.

Easystreet · #38 09-11-2005, 06:09 AM

I think betting the flop is better than going for a c/r, the reasons have allready been given by @bsolute luck.

What I would like to ask about is heros action on the turn. Would trying for a check raise on the turn be a good idea. The button capped the flop, so I think he is quite likely to bet the turn if checked to, that allows you to raise and face the other two players with having to pay two cold if they wish to continue. If either has an ace they no longer have the odds to call for a gut shot. By betting out on the turn the pot will be 15.5BB so if the big blind or cut off have an ace they have good odds to draw to a four for a wheel straight.

TripleH68 · #39 09-11-2005, 07:04 AM

Just get as many bets as possible into the middle of the table. Simple as that.

Of course you should be looking for signs that you may be beat on the turn and river. That is poker.

pete shaw · #40 09-12-2005, 04:58 PM

I would really like some input from a carpal or two here. Ever time I clicked on a different point of view I found myself aggreeing. After all the reading, I think I came down on the c/r side of things(prob results oriented). But I'm a noob, so what do I know.

Thanks in advance [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]