Give my 3-bet respectability or wait till the turn?

gomberg · #1 09-09-2005, 11:08 AM

5-10 6max. I open w/ 56s UTG+1, Button calls, blinds fold. We both start w/ 1k.

Flop 56Kr I bet 2/3 pot (normal continuation bet for me, button raises $100 more, Hero...

I 3-bet bluff in this spot some percentage of time, should I 3-bet here? Button's most likely hand is a mid pocket pair or KQ (maybe AK).

BobboFitos · #2 09-09-2005, 11:15 AM

unless you've shown 3bet bluff isnt this a classic case of 3bet lets him fold KQ/all worse Ks/underpair easy and traps you the small % of times you're beaten?

there aren't really too many draws he could be raising, so it looks like he's testing to see if his hand is good... dont tell him it isn't.

right?

problem is I'm not sure how best to handle turn. stop & go is just like 3 bet except you give him the free chance to turn his kicker or trips, (or rare case he has oesd, the nuts) if you check he probably checks behind huge % of time (but will call river bet) but if he has top pair he's often very live vs your bottom two.

so maybe this is a case where taking it down now is better then prolonging the hand, solely because you dont rate to ellicit too much more $ out of the bulk of his hand range?

If he sometimes doesn't fold top pair (vs a LAG I probably wouldn't have raised AK on this flop, but if I did, I wouldn't get away from it...) then shoot it in is best. If he always gets away, i'm not sure.

phillydilly · #3 09-09-2005, 12:35 PM

I go ahead and 3 bet.
Obviously, you're looking to stack him in NL, but bottom 2 just isnt all that strong a hand. I throw a decent raise and am content to take it down right now.

gomberg · #4 09-09-2005, 12:39 PM

I like your analysis, but if this is the case - given a decent image, shouldn't I be 3-bet bluffing in this spot a good percentage of the time? I'm probably around 20% right now - and I think it's only not worked twice out of like 20 times or so, so maybe I should do it more.

In the hand I reraised because I was out of position, a lot of cards could scare both of us, and I didn't think I'd get much more out of him anyways unless he drew out on me, so I figured I'd maybe get a call from AK, AA, or KK, 55, 66, and a fold from everything else. He had just sat down recently, so don't think he saw me as playing fast (although i had been for the last couple rounds).

creedofhubris · #5 09-09-2005, 03:03 PM

I think you should lean towards three-betting here, since bottom two has a relatively high chance of being counterfeited; you can afford to slowplay a set or top two much more, since villain is less likely to catch up.

lapoker17 · #6 09-09-2005, 04:04 PM

I think it's nearly always correct to play bottom 2 as fast as possible - If he's seen you 3 bet bluff before, great, if not, ending it here isn't that bad anyway. Any paint on the turn and you feel queasy.

xorbie · #7 09-09-2005, 05:53 PM

3 betting in this spot lets you do it with draws later. Easy 3-bet IMO, especially because you don't want to play guessing games on a Q or A turn.

deadmoney98 · #8 09-09-2005, 06:40 PM

If you 3 bet bluff sometimes, don't you have to 3 bet with a hand sometimes to make the first play profitable. That of course assumes your opponents are paying attention, which I know is often a big assumption.

I agree with the previous posters, bottom two is not really a hand to get cute with. Get the money in now.

RollaJ · #9 09-10-2005, 11:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I think it's nearly always correct to play bottom 2 as fast as possible

[/ QUOTE ]

cero_z · #10 09-10-2005, 12:21 PM

Hi Jeff,

[ QUOTE ]
I 3-bet bluff in this spot some percentage of time, should I 3-bet here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely. Also, I think your general approach to this situation is perfect. Don't bluff much more, even though it's working so often; there's some frequency tipping point at which your opponents start to notice it, and your batting avg. drops off significantly. I think 20% is close to that point.