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#1
09-09-2005, 02:27 PM
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Where the fish are, and marginal limps in EP
You're sitting at a table with two decent fish. They're sitting next to eachother. You're UTG with JTs. Other than that, the table is full of TPPs, SLPPs and probably 3 TAAs.
--- If these two fish are to your direct left in this hand, I think you could go ahead and limp. However, if they're in the CO/BUTTON, then you should probably just fold, because there's a fair chance that they'll have to face two bets cold, which they may be less likely to call, and therefore there's less of a chance of a multiway pot for you. Okay, to put it another way: What does VPIP 20 mean? Well, for me, it means not a lot in EP, but quite a bit on the button/bb/ etc. To a fish, though, what does VPIP 40 mean... it means, a lot of hands up front, when it's only one bet to you, but on the button, if it's three cold, you might fold your K5o, meaning that they'll have perhaps (I've never actually checked this in PT to see if it's true) less VPIP in LP than EP. To summarize, there's a greater chance of a multiway pot when the LPPs are in EP than LP. ------ Sorry about poor writing style in this post, I'm just jotting it down quickly. 
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#2
09-09-2005, 02:31 PM
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Re: Where the fish are, and marginal limps in EP
i'm gonna have to request an edit [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] because i have read this post a couple times trying to grasp what you are saying and...well...i just don't get it [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] call me slow, but i'm missing what you're preachin' [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
and FWIW: "decent" and "fish" is an oxymoron put together. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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#3
09-09-2005, 03:02 PM
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Re: Where the fish are, and marginal limps in EP
You're right about "decent fish", what I mean, is like "dinner for two" rather than "dinner for four".
--- What I'm saying is that as fish get closer to the BB in a hand, rather than closer to the button, they're less likely to face multiple bets cold. As a result, they're more likely to play. As a result, it's more likely to be a multiway pot when fish act before TAAs. You've probably noticed that YOU play more hands in LP than EP. I think it's possible that fish play more hands in EP than LP. ---- Using this information in determining how you play is simple: The greater the chance of a raise happening in front of the fish, the less often you limp with marginal hands. (Common sense anyways, as it's the same chance that you're going to be against a TAA HU with a marginal hand, OOP).
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#4
09-09-2005, 03:22 PM
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Re: Where the fish are, and marginal limps in EP
[ QUOTE ]
I think it's possible that fish play more hands in EP than LP. [/ QUOTE ] this is great. i noticed this as well and laugh because it seems when they are in EP, they think "finally, no one has raised yet so i can get in cheaply"- seemingly to flip positional advantages backwards. [ QUOTE ] The greater the chance of a raise happening in front of the fish, the less often you limp with marginal hands. (Common sense anyways, as it's the same chance that you're going to be against a TAA HU with a marginal hand, OOP). [/ QUOTE ] i have approached this next step when considering what hands to raise, but didn't consider it on limping hands. good point to think about. i was reading a post in HUSH that pointed out that if the blinds are loose and you're first to act in Button, it is sometimes fine to open limp with some marginal hands because they are so loose. haven't fully thought that one out, but i think it applies here just as well.
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#5
09-09-2005, 03:24 PM
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Re: Where the fish are, and marginal limps in EP
In my piscatorial days I would play K5o from anywhere. It was my lucky hand. I would get trips all nthe time with it. Why I was going broke all the time I didn't know. But I had to play that. I just had to.
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#6
09-09-2005, 03:24 PM
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Re: Where the fish are, and marginal limps in EP
I like you're idea alot, but I'd add that higher VPIPs are more likely to cold call. So even thought their VPIPs might be lower in late position (as you say), I'd still be more likely to limp with them there than if there were tighter players there...
I guess what I'm trying to say is, I like you're point, but I'm not sure it's completely useful... The overiding theme in games with high VPIPs is that pots are more likely to be multiway, regardless of where they are located...
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#7
09-09-2005, 03:36 PM
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Re: Where the fish are, and marginal limps in EP
[ QUOTE ]
I like you're idea alot, but I'd add that higher VPIPs are more likely to cold call. So even thought their VPIPs might be lower in late position (as you say), I'd still be more likely to limp with them there than if there were tighter players there... I guess what I'm trying to say is, I like you're point, but I'm not sure it's completely useful... The overiding theme in games with high VPIPs is that pots are more likely to be multiway, regardless of where they are located... [/ QUOTE ] i think you missed David's point. if the table layout is: Hero, TA, TA, Fish, Fish : you don't want limp with marginal hands because either TA may raise and isolate you and you'll be out of position and HU. however if the table layout is: Hero, Fish, Fish, TAA, TAA - you are more assured of a multiway pot giving your marginal hands better odds to draw...at least that's what i understand him saying.
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#8
09-09-2005, 03:39 PM
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Re: Where the fish are, and marginal limps in EP
Upon reading all of your responses, I agree that I missed the point. I mean, I do understand it, but I immediately jumped to the idea of a game with:
You TA TA Fish Fish vs. You TA TA tightie tightie when I should have been thinking only in terms of the former game. Nice post David.
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#9
09-09-2005, 05:00 PM
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Re: Where the fish are, and marginal limps in EP
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I like you're idea alot, but I'd add that higher VPIPs are more likely to cold call. So even thought their VPIPs might be lower in late position (as you say), I'd still be more likely to limp with them there than if there were tighter players there... I guess what I'm trying to say is, I like you're point, but I'm not sure it's completely useful... The overiding theme in games with high VPIPs is that pots are more likely to be multiway, regardless of where they are located... [/ QUOTE ] i think you missed David's point. if the table layout is: Hero, TA, TA, Fish, Fish : you don't want limp with marginal hands because either TA may raise and isolate you and you'll be out of position and HU. however if the table layout is: Hero, Fish, Fish, TAA, TAA - you are more assured of a multiway pot giving your marginal hands better odds to draw...at least that's what i understand him saying. [/ QUOTE ] You guys are both right. The first respondent has said that the likelihood of cold-calling is increased in fish. I'm not disputing that. However, keep in mind that their PFCC% is less than their VPIP%.
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#10
09-09-2005, 05:18 PM
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Re: Where the fish are, and marginal limps in EP
[ QUOTE ]
i was reading a post in HUSH that pointed out that if the blinds are loose and you're first to act in Button, it is sometimes fine to open limp with some marginal hands because they are so loose. haven't fully thought that one out, but i think it applies here just as well. [/ QUOTE ] Just don't take it too far. If there's a 30% chance of a successful steal you should still raise. Page 197 HEPFAP for reference.
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