The MMMMMM "race issue is DEAD" challenge

[Cyrus]

Balls to the wall, vultures.

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The problem with your challenge is that racism isn't the in-your-face, easily noticeable entity that it was a long time ago. It is a much subtler, almost conspiratorial type of entity.
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That said, I spent most my time growing up in the South. Racism is alive and well. It has become more "sophisticated" if you will, with modern day bigots making claims like they are only prejudiced against certain kinds of black people and other such nonsense.
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As for personal observation, I'll throw in two of my more vivid recollections. The first was a week of numerous outbreaks of violence on campus between the blacks and the good ol' boys at my school, brought about by several attacks on some black kids in our school coupled with a surge in advertising and vocal support for the KKK.
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The second was my being attacked by a group of about 8 good ol' boys which resulted in a broken blood vessel in my eye the day before I had to visit the optometrist for the eye examination which was part of my physical examination for entrnace in the Naval Academy. If I had been hit a little harder or been a little less adept at defending myself or any of a host of "might-haves", I might have not been able to realize the dream that I had held for most of my young life. The reason I was attacked was for having the termerity to drive my basketball teamates (myself and one other member of the team were white) home from practice and then compounding my "mistake" by mouthing off to one of the good ol' boys who didnt like this practice of mine.
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Since then I have encountered other instances of racism, though none quite so direct as those, but more of subtle attitudes observed, etc.
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I personally don't think Affirmative Action is a great thing at this time. But it sure as hell isn't because I think racism is dead.

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Balls to the wall.

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Not true. Actually, I asked if the poster had PERSONALLY OBSERVED an incident of racism that had had a serious effect in the areas he mentioned. Later, I also opened the challenge to others, but "PERSONALLY OBSERVED" is key here--not something you have merely read about in the newspapers.

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You are right, although it is a bit unclear what you mean by "personally observed".

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It appears to be somewhat of a moving target--as the thread progressed, the modifier "serious" was added.

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Not true. That qualifier was part of the original request, as reprinted here:

Re: Either way...
09/03/05 10:18 AM

ACPlayer: "It is existent, practiced daily in government and corporations and small business and personal interactions."

M: "I can't remember the last time I've seen its effects in any particular instance. And I mean for decades.

Can you? Can you cite an instance of racism you observed which it had some serious effect in the areas you mention?"


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Well, I read your original question, which asked about an incident that had some serious effect, to be different than the following:

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Myrtle, if you have personal expereience of serious incidents of racism occurring in this country, in the workplace or, say, in court, that had a seriously deleterious effect on someone, well then yes: I'd like to hear it.

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Maybe you meant them the same way, but it sure looks like a moving target from here.

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So are you saying you have PERSONALLY OBSERVED an incident of racism which had some serious effect in the areas ACPlayer mentioned? Because that is what I was asking (due to my impression that such incidents are rather rare).

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It depends what you mean by "personally observed" and "serious effect". Frankly, in my day-to-day life, if someone I worked with acted in some overtly racist manner with "serious" effects, they would be fired. Period. And I don't hang out with people that casually use the word "nigger" in conversation and whatnot. However, I have met such people. And I certainly have investigated incidents of overt racism with "serious" effects that I have no doubt actually happened even if I wasn't present at the time to observe them.

As I think is true in all of our experiences, we typically see what we want and expect to see. It takes effort to look outside our preconceived notions to look for evidence that contradicts our own beliefs. Many people simply don't make such an effort, and thus they don't see things like racist incidents that could be right in front of their nose.

That having been said...it may be that you and other posters are talking past each other. You now acknowledge that the race issue is not, in fact, dead "except for those with axes to grind", etc. So what it now seems that you are saying is that overt racism is less prevelant than it used to be.

Which is, I believe, a rather banal point. And one that I don't think anyone disputes.

[cardcounter0]

It is my understanding that MMMMMM lives in Utah.
Utah isn't exactly a huge melting pot of mixed cultures.
I am willing to bet that 99% of MMMMMM's neighbors are white.

MMMMMM made a post a while back about not having any pants and always wearing sweats, being to large to fit in any other type of clothing (in other words, he doesn't get out of the house much).

So you have some White Bread living in White Bread land, who rarely pokes his nose out of the door.

I am thinking there is a whole huge wide range of things that MMMMMM has not personally observed, and if he wants to limit his world view to personal observation, what a strange narrow viewpoint that is!
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[MMMMMM]

Thank you, Elliot Richardsn.

Yes, I do think there is some element of "talking past each other" in that thread--and perhaps more than just a little bit.

[MuckJagger]

At the risk of attempting to jump start a thread that may have died a natural death, I'd like to offer up a couple incidents.

These are only personal experience and not institutional, so they may not cound under the established ground rules. There were no lasting repercussions, although my friend T. was depressed for the following couple days.

Five years ago, some friends and I went to a Dwight Yoakam concert at Wolf Trap in Virginia. After the concert as we were getting ready to leave, one of the guys we were with shook my hand and whispered "I'm just glad there weren't any (many?) niggers here." (It's to my shame I didn't call him out on it, but I had only recently moved to the area. When you're the new kid in town, you don't want to make waves.)

The second incident was about two years ago. A group of us went out to Las Vegas on what's proven to be an annual trip. The ringleaders are me, M. (not 6M, of course!) and T.; we've gone every year while the supporting cast of four or five other friends has changed.

T., M. and M.'s girlfriend, A., were walking through a casino parking lot. Three guys "wearing big cowboy hats" (there was a rodeo in town) yelled "HEY, NIGGER!" to him as they drove by.

More egregious: the cowbigots chose to circle the block -- where they again called T. a nigger.

There was a further incident with casino security after T. attempted a confrontation; my understanding is that security had a complete lack of interest in the situation. I have an e-mail in to my friend M. asking for his help in refreshing me recollection of the situation -- T. prefers to not talk about it even two years later -- and if there is any further interest in this thread I'll post the rest of the story once my friend responds.

Mike

[Easy E]

So, do I understand you correctly in that you are saying that only overt, obvious acts are racism?

I've heard racist comments by friends. I've seen reports of acts that were not so harmless and subtle (which, I guess, doesn't count in your standard). How prevelant and damaging racism is (and let's not limit ourselves to one race, here) may be unclear, but I for one don't think it is as rare as you seem to believe. I think it's more underground because of the legal risks.

The whole argument about how damaging an atmosphere of hidden hostility can be, I leave to the "experts."

[MMMMMM]

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So, do I understand you correctly in that you are saying that only overt, obvious acts are racism?

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No.

The point I was trying to make in the original thread, from which this was lifted, was that the race card and those grinding political axes along racial lines really don't have that much of a leg to stand on anymore.

I further suggested that the overall effect of racism which occurs today, is pretty much counterweighed by programs such as Affirmative Action. In other words, that racism is greatly reduced yet still existent, but its net deleterious effects today are not very great at all especially considering the counter-effects of certain forces.

This view of mine was challenged, and some said racism is still very widespread. I then asked for specific personally observed incidents wherein racism had had a serious and deleterious effect, since I wasn't trying to argue that racism itself was stone dead. I was essentially trying to show that the race card or rtace issues, used by political race warlords, are greatly overblown. Examples asked for included such things as: harm caused in the workplace, or in court, or, say, if someone had witnessed someone getting beaten up. My take is that such incidents are pretty rare overall and that the overall efects are counterweighed by Affirmative Action and other such things (not to mention the huge numbers of people today who despise racism and would take action to prevent it in the workplace, for instance).

So I wasn't trying to say that racism itself is stone dead. I was trying to say that the really bad effects from acts of racism today are rather few and far between, and overall, racism doesn't have a great overall effect on us anymore, e.g., racism doesn't keep blacks out of employment more than Affirmative Action helps them gain employment (and actually I suspect that the Affirmative Action effect is probably stronger).

So, I think the race warlords are mainly posturing and pandering (not to say that some real instances don't exist of course--I'm just talking about overall effect on society.

The reason I asked for personally observed examples was because thought that if seriously bad racist acts were prevalent, that would be suggested by having been observed by us. Conversely, a complete absence of incidents observed would suggest that my own observations--of no such incidents--is the norm and that would suggest that such incidents are probably relatively rare. To date only Vulturesrow has offered a personally observed incident).

I could be wrong but that's my take on it. And I agree that there are some more subtle incidents. I just don't think the race warlords are decrying today's racism nearly in proportion to its actual existence or deleterious effects. They are overblowing the whole picture, and greatly so, in my opinion.

[SheetWise]

He said; She said;

Where's the opposition?
Did this really happen?
Are allegations alone enough for you?

No amount of legislation is going to change human behavior. For example, I'm not attracted to fat girls. So what?

I'm also an employer. I want to hire people who are going to make me money -- when I sense a difference in qualifications, it's a no-brainer -- but what if I have two equally qualified candidates, one who is fit and the other who is fat? I'll probably dump the fat one. Am I guilty?

I have another prejudice, it's about people who don't speak english. I don't define what english is -- my customers do. My customers do not speak ebonics. If I have a choice between two candidates, one who believes "ask" is pronounced "ask" and one believes "ask" is pronounced "ax", I will take the former, probably every time (unless my customers begin speaking ebonics). I treat all non-english speaking applicants the same. Does this make me a snob? A racist snob or a linguistic snob?

I also give preferential treatment to people who smell OK vs. people who don't. People who have teeth to brush (and do) vs. people who don't. Am I an olfactory segregationist? A visual dogmatist?

Am I a racist?