I am an awful player, plz berate me - Page 2

#11 08-29-2005, 02:47 PM

Actually, it's worse than 39% win rate. That was for 2 people seeing the flop. With 4 people seeing the flop your win rate is 6.9% (.21*.33=.069).

So, folding is correct.

KramerTM · #12 08-29-2005, 02:50 PM

Don't change a thing. I'm playing it how you played it. I love that it get checked to me on the flop, because I am getting infinite implied odds to spike my set. Betting this flop would be an egregious mistake here, because getting check-raised is disastrous when we could have seen the turn card for free. 9/10 time you need to hit your set to take this pot down. Take the free card and be happy about it.

That said, I don't hate 3-betting PF. But please, if you do... use it to your advantage and take a free card off on that flop.

Wada · #13 08-29-2005, 02:51 PM

I think you played it fine. I disagree with a 3-bet preflop against a TAG. You either fold, or in your case cold call the raise in hopes the two other limpers call to make it worth while for flopping a set.

I cant imagine that you would want to put in 3 bets against a tag with a mid PP and force both limpers to fold. I would want the limpers to call the raise to make it profitable to flop a set.

The flop check is fine in hope of spiking a 9 on the turn. Fold the turn.

Hamlet · #14 08-29-2005, 03:14 PM

I would disagree with this statement. You are almost always a money dog 4-ways against an overpair for 3+ bets. About the only way it is decent is if you're opponents share alot of cards. Generally you have less than 20% equity in a pot that you likely payed 4 bets pre-flop on (since the overpair will generally cap). You have to make up alot of ground post-flop.

[ QUOTE ]
Even if we get two cold-calls from hands that merit being in the hand, we are never in that bad shape in a four-way field even if we're up against overpairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

SeaEagle · #15 08-29-2005, 03:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Let's try three-bet pre-flop here.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you accomplishing with a 3-bet? At best you have a very small equity edge. And you're likely decreasing it by reraising, since you won't be able to protect your hand post-flop.

Let's look at the most likely scenarios:
1) You get a bad flop with 2 or more overcards. You're toast with 3 opponents and cost yourself and extra bet the vast majority of the time.

2) You get a good flop with 1 or less overcards. It sure would be nice to be able to raise the PF raiser and face the field with 2 bets in this situation. Instead, you'll be unable to protect your hand and will have to dodge an overcard on the turn as well. I cannot believe the equity you gained with the PF bet can be anywhere near the value of being able to buy overcard outs in a big pot.

3) You flop a set. Even in this case, your PF reraise has already defined your hand as very strong so you lose some of the deceptive value of making a set. Opponents will be looking for a reason to fold against you and your implied odds will be less as a result.

Maybe at a higher level you might get a limper or two to fold, but at 2/4 all you're doing is investing an extra bet to tie overcards to the pot.

damaniac · #16 08-29-2005, 03:30 PM

Totally agree with this reasoning, three-betting would be right if there were no limpers, and probably better even if there is one, but once you get two or more, you're bloating the pot with a small edge, preventing protection postflop.

thejameser · #17 08-29-2005, 03:39 PM

with position i 3 bet preflop and bet the damn flop. you cannot give those diamonds or gutshots a free card. you have a medium diamond redraw, why fold? haven't read other posts so sorry if already asked/answered. man, really passive here.

mdob · #18 08-29-2005, 05:13 PM

I three-bet pre-flop. There is a very good chance the rock will fold then and I'd rather be up against two people than three with 99. I don't know why people think a rock will never fold for two back to him pre-flop. He's a damn rock. He sees a 3-bet, think AA, KK, or AKs and happily dumps AQ.

Anyway, I play the flop the same, but call the turn. The pot is decent sized and you can easily fold UI on the river. Let's say villain has a flush 25% of the time (4 outs), AJ 25% of the time (11 outs), an A with a Q, or T 40% of the time (11 outs roughly 30% of the time and 2 outs roughly 10% of the time), and a full house 10% of the time (say 0 outs). This is a very (ridiculously, perhaps) conservative distribution, I think. You have 7.25 weighted outs meaning you need about 5-1 to call. You're easily getting that and your implied odds are decent if you hit-- maybe 1.5 BB.

#19 08-29-2005, 09:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let's try three-bet pre-flop here.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you accomplishing with a 3-bet? At best you have a very small equity edge. And you're likely decreasing it by reraising, since you won't be able to protect your hand post-flop.

Let's look at the most likely scenarios:
1) You get a bad flop with 2 or more overcards. You're toast with 3 opponents and cost yourself and extra bet the vast majority of the time.

2) You get a good flop with 1 or less overcards. It sure would be nice to be able to raise the PF raiser and face the field with 2 bets in this situation. Instead, you'll be unable to protect your hand and will have to dodge an overcard on the turn as well. I cannot believe the equity you gained with the PF bet can be anywhere near the value of being able to buy overcard outs in a big pot.

3) You flop a set. Even in this case, your PF reraise has already defined your hand as very strong so you lose some of the deceptive value of making a set. Opponents will be looking for a reason to fold against you and your implied odds will be less as a result.

Maybe at a higher level you might get a limper or two to fold, but at 2/4 all you're doing is investing an extra bet to tie overcards to the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this statement. In this spot coldcalling with 99 is not even that exciting let alone 3 betting it.

#20 08-29-2005, 09:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Pf raiser is a TAG, gaybetter on turn is a rock. All streets need advice. This may be standard but i didnt feel right about it.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 folds, MP2 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]
You played this hand perfectly on every street.