Post deleted by Mat Sklansky

[Pov]

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It bears repeating, although some have noted it, that everything in this thread applies to LIMIT hold 'em. In NLHE I understand it's pretty routine for good players to deny their opponents proper odds to chase a flush draw.

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And also somewhat common to take those improper odds because of the big payoff if you hit and your opponent can't fold. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[jedi]

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Wow. I have won a few hands chasing the flush draw but had always thought that I was doing something wrong chasing them down. Going against the 'fit or fold' mentality that I was told was godd beginner play. Perhaps I'm not! (I'm so new at this game it hurts sometimes!!!).

My on

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Although "fit or fold" is a nice beginner's mantra (that Ed points out fails in the face of expected value), flopping 2 of your suit is actually a pretty good fit. The point the other posters are trying to make is that while you may be correct in folding the 4-flush in an unraised heads-up pot (read: SMALL pot), most of the time, you'll be playing in multi-way pots in where it's not only correct to call with flush draws, but raise and reraise with them for value. This is ESPECIALLY true with the typical small stakes opponents who go too far with their marginal hands.

Re-read the sections on odds and expected value. If I'm a 10-1 longshot on a given bet, but I'm getting 20-1 on my money, I'll take that bet every chance I can get it. That's the general principle at work here.

[Pov]

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"Fit or fold" is TERRIBLE beginner play.

Read SSHE - then re-read it - and you will understand.



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I really wish I had found this site before some of the others I've read and listened to advice given on TV etc. It appears a lot of things I thought were good have been designed to reduce the potential loss of playing. I want to learn to play good poker not just learn to bleed to death more slowly! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Yes - I think the most influential one-liner I ever received was "Your goal is to win money, not to win pots." It takes a lot of thinking to fully understand all the implications of this simple phrase. What I really ended up getting from it was learning to be willing to lose as long as I was taking good odds while doing it. Previous to that I really felt like I had to win every hand I played.

Much of the beginner advice you typically run across is focused around cutting your losses just as you said. But what if I gave you this proposition: We'll roll a die and on a 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 you'll pay me $1. On a 6 I'll pay you $8. You're going to lose over 83% of the time. But you should jump on this bet nonetheless because clearly it is a good bet. The only thing that really matters is that the payoff on the times you win exceeds the payout on the times you fail. In this case .83 * $1 < .17 * $8. In fact, even if I only pay you $6 this bet is still profitable for you!

Flush draws are the same concept. They may only hit 1/3 of the time, but if the pot is big enough compared to the amount you have to put in then it's a good bet even though you'll lose more frequently than you win.

[bweiser8311962]

Not only do you like this flopping 4 to the flush, you should LOVE it. You should be RAISING, RERAISING and CAPPING the flop in limit.

[Pov]

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Not only do you like this flopping 4 to the flush, you should LOVE it. You should be RAISING, RERAISING and CAPPING the flop in limit.

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I wouldn't go that far without qualification. If 4 people are calling me and the board isn't paired, yes - I would cap without hesitation. Only two other players or a pair out there and I'm only raising if I think it's likely to get me a free card on the turn.

[SheridanCat]

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Not only do you like this flopping 4 to the flush, you should LOVE it. You should be RAISING, RERAISING and CAPPING the flop in limit.

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Let's not be maniacs about this. As Pov points out, you'll need the right situation to play like that. And, then if I'm holding middling cards, I'm not looking to jam it hard until I see there's not a fourth suited card on the board.

Regards,

T

[Ilovephysics]

The advice I was given: 1) everyone overestimates their skill at poker, 2) don't go on tilt, and 3) don't bluff the live ones.

[Rev. Good Will]

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Fit or fold is a safe position, but you're often giving up a lot of equity. And a four-flush on the flop - fits. Almost always.

Here's a scenario where you don't want to continue:

2/4 Limit Holdem.

You're in the small blind holding K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

The action folds around to you and you call (just for the sake of the example - you'd normally raise here) and the big blind checks.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (Pot: 2 SBs)

You check your nut flush draw. BB bets. It's a small bet back to you. The pot is offering you 3:1 and you're 2:1 to make your flush by the river, so you call.

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dude, you know you're supposed to go by odds for the next card only, right?

you are offered 1:3 on a 1:~4 (little more)

but you should still call, cause you can make up the unprofitable call you just made on later streets

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

"The time to make big laydowns is preflop. The time to make loose calls is on the river. Bad players do the exact opposite."

OK, OK, that's more than one line. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[AKQJ10]

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dude, you know you're supposed to go by odds for the next card only, right?


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Well, usually in the case of standard flush draws you can figure the odds with two cards to come, because you can assume you're virtually certain to stay in. But in this case the pot is so outrageously small that you should probably figure it for the turn in isolation then for the river in isolation.

If you're in a low-limit game where misplaying hands like this is a significant leak, it's certainly not your biggest leak. Your biggest leak would be your poor game selection that would have you facing hands like this more than once in a blue moon.

Of course if you're facing hands like this in the Bellagio $400/800, well, that's different.