overpair, huge overbet 6max 1/2

[xcrack999]

Good post, amoeba. Couldn't have said it better.

[GrunchCan]

Is this hand really that much different from this one?

In the other hand, they advice is to check the turn in order to induce a river bluff. Therefore, call any river bet, include a push.

Does the board pairing TP really make that much difference here?

[amoeba]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this hand really that much different from this one?

In the other hand, they advice is to check the turn in order to induce a river bluff. Therefore, call any river bet, include a push.

Does the board pairing TP really make that much difference here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there is a bit of difference. there is much more already in the pot in the hand you linked. a push wouldn't be that much more than potsized. here, you have to be right that you are winning a much more higher percentage of the time.

Also, the board paring top pair affects it very much. Unless if villain is known to be tight enough to not play hands with an 8, I think range of hands that beat us here is wider than range of hands that we beat.

[taran]

[ QUOTE ]
lets say you bet the turn. how much do you bet? lets say 2/3 pot. sounds reasonable. you bet 40, he calls. pot on river is 140 or so. he leads for 80, a little over 1/2 pot. you fold? you call?

[/ QUOTE ]

What range of hands would you put Villain on that would call 2/3 on turn and then lead on river and those we beat?
Checking the turn you are setting up your self for bluff
The case can be made for pot control but without read and taking into account the action pre-fop, on flop there is no reason to believe that we are behind(besides quads) and we should put money in when we are ahead. What if A comes and he leads pot?

You can play this way if you are inducing bluff but I wouldn’t do it without solid read that he will lead river with air

[amoeba]

you don't think QQ , JJ, maybe TT calls turn for 2/3 pot and blocks river for 1/2 pot here? and in my example I actually toned down the turn bet. its a bet of 40 in to a pot of almost 70. more like 3/5 pot but I just wanted to illustrate how even small bets like this can inflate pot size by quite a bit if called.

how often do these same hands push the river after you check behind on the turn? wouldn't most players just lead the river for 1/2 pot to 2/3 when the turn is checked through with these same hands or perhaps check call against an aggressive AK?

I'll put it this way. he knows you don't have the 8 or boat. you don't know he doesn't have the 8 or boat. river pushes for almost 3 times the size of the pot are very rare. river pushes on a pure bluff at this level is even rarer.

so given that he plays a very nonstandard game for this limit, why do you think he'll react standardly to your turn bet and give you the accurate information you need to assess the situation?

now, if you feel that he is tight enough to where an 8 is impossible here and that its more likely a hand that you beat then you should obviously bet the turn for value. But OP didn't indicate any reads and from what we know typically of games of this level, a hand with an 8 is certainly possible and that most people with either a hand that beats us or a hand that has showdown value but is behind us will value/blocking bet the river, we try to not inflate potsize by betting the turn.

[taran]

well I am not debating river here as you said and I concur that it seldom bluff here on this board. I would love him to have QQ, JJ, TT and play them the way you described.

We do not have read on the guy so isn’t correct to assume that he doesn’t play 8-x OOP against 3 players cold calling a raise? The question here is, who will go broke by letting a free card fall you or villain? Pot control is good thing when draws are out and you might have 2nd best hand. Given the action turn bet is better IMO

[amoeba]

[ QUOTE ]
well I am not debating river here as you said and I concur that it seldom bluff here on this board. I would love him to have QQ, JJ, TT and play them the way you described.

We do not have read on the guy so isn’t correct to assume that he doesn’t play 8-x OOP against 3 players cold calling a raise? The question here is, who will go broke by letting a free card fall you or villain? Pot control is good thing when draws are out and you might have 2nd best hand. Given the action turn bet is better IMO

[/ QUOTE ]

players are more likely to call with drawing hands preflop if there are multiple callers of a raise before them as their immediate odds are much better and technically their implied odds are much better since preflop raiser has to makes a much bigger bet on the flop due to inflated pot from multiple callers.

who will go broke with a free card? its obviously villain. I won't lose my stack with a single pair and if he catches his 2 outer he catches his two outer. most players will probably look for value with his boat if they hit and because the turn was not bet, his river value bet isn't that big and you save money. if I hit the K, and he has an 8, all the money is going in the middle. either he has a 2 outer or I have a 2 outer. the difference is if he hits, I'm not going broke, if I hit, he is.

I've had this debate many many times before. Each time, I say that checking behind saves money when you are behind and earns money when you are ahead and allows you to actually see the river and potentially hit a 1 in 20 shot of having the 2nd nuts. Check behind on the turn is the correct move in all cases except ones where villain will push overbet the river on a bluff but will not bluff if you bet the turn. Given that these type of villains are very very rare and that hero had no read that villain had these tendencies prior to the hand, check behind on the turn is correct.

[taran]

Ok . it doesn’t look like it goes anywhere.
I did not refer specifically to you about getting broke with free card. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
I believe it is general notion not to slow play and let free cards for villain.

I really want to be results oriented here but for what it worth:
Where do you see in action that hero is behind on turn?
With range of hands and it is most likely pp or AK/AQ for villain to have here you will be ahead on turn more of the times then behind (against quads or 8) So bet turn we shall

[amoeba]

I don't think anybody is advocating a slowplay. neither are we saying hero is neccesarily behind on the turn.

but the whole point is regardless of whether hero is ahead or behind, there is a certain pot size that hero is willing to play for with a single pair.

let me ask you this. if you bet the turn and villain calls then checks to you on a blank river, do you bet again?

[taran]

[ QUOTE ]
let me ask you this. if you bet the turn and villain calls then checks to you on a blank river, do you bet again?

[/ QUOTE ]
non A river. Yes and expect PP to call my value bet.