Big pot, bad play?

[Ikke]

5-handed 20/40 PP.

I'm UTG with QdJd and raise. Everyone folds to the SB who coldcalls. Now the BB 3-bets.

BB is a overaggressive player. Has no timing; he bluffs in the worst spots. If he bluffs he does that extremely aggressively, even 3 or 4 betting the turn with a crap draw or nothing when it's obvious he wont take the pot. I've won a lot of him in our HU battles (sat on his right and isolated a lot).

The SB is an unknown to me.

I cap it.

Both players call.

Flop: Js Ts 3s

SB checks, BB bets. I raise and now the SB 3-bets. Both BB and me call.

Turn is a harmless 4c. SB leads out, BB calls, I call.

River is a Qc. It's checked to me and I bet. Only SB calls.

Obviously my hand is good. But I think I dont like my play.

Comments?

Regards

[Bill Murphy]

Played fine, IMO. Might not always want to be quite that aggressive, but played fine. I'll bet you're thinking you should've raised the turn. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Ikke]

" I'll bet you're thinking you should've raised the turn. "

That dirty little thought crossed my mind, but no, didnt want to be in that mess when 3-bet.

No, it was my flopplay I didnt like. When I raised, SB gets 1:7.5 on a call. From my experience, people tend to play the flop very loosely in shorthanded games. So, since the board was flushed and so coordinated, I don't think he would fold about any hand I want him to fold (not even a mediocre flushcard probably). I also think that it wouldnt help me much if he 3-bets my raise (as happened) because of the habits of the BB. He wouldnt let go of any other hand there as well.

But what about calling the flop. OK...I lay him huge odds (1:12), but he probably would have taken it with about the same hands as if I raised. But now a totally, way more beautiful (IMO) situation could arise. If SB just calls then this would open up a lot of opportunities for my turn play, because BB is about garanteed to bet if checked to. I could raise there on a lot of turncards (maybe about any), and get it HU with a player who could still have about any hand. On the turn I would lay SB 1:4.75; way worse.

So let's see a few senario's. A blank comes. Well, likely it would go check-bet-raise. I would like that ;-)

A flushcard comes. When SB would check and BB bet I think I would still raise. SB might be able to lay down a medium flushcard there, and I still think I'm about even to BB. So yeah, might be able to win with the second best hand.

A flushcard comes and SB comes betting out. Quite possible, but it might give me the opportunity to get away from my hand. Still, this would be the scenario I like least ;-)

I could go on with this a bit, but generally I think calling the flop, raising the turn could way increase your chances of winning this pot, whereas raising the flop doesnt increase your chances (that much) vs calling the flop.

Whatcha think....calling the flop better?

Regards

[crockpot]

your hand isn't quite as strong as the one described in the HEPFAP section on how to play in loose games, but i think the same discussion applies. waiting until the turn to raise is not a bad play, assuming the SB doesn't check raise the flop and a very scary card doesn't come off.

(by the way, i don't think a cap was called for pre-flop. you don't want to try to drive out the SB with a hand like this, and it doesn't play that great shorthanded.)

[Ikke]

[ QUOTE ]
your hand isn't quite as strong as the one described in the HEPFAP section on how to play in loose games, but i think the same discussion applies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please say which concepts or arguments you refer to and say how they do or don't apply here. I'm not into HPFAP so much anymore that I know exact discussion.

[ QUOTE ]
by the way, i don't think a cap was called for pre-flop. you don't want to try to drive out the SB with a hand like this, ...)

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasnt my intension. It virtually never happens that they coldcall a raise and fold to a cap.

[ QUOTE ]
and it doesn't play that great shorthanded

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it plays great in this situation.

Regards

[tewall]

I think you're right (call the flop, raise the river). In addition to not getting out the hands you want out on the flop, you might get out hands you do want in.

I think you're also right that calling the flop and raising the turn gives you a chance of winning with second best hand, especially if SB is a decent player (which I guess you don't know).

[chessforlife]

what is hepfap?

[Lunar Tweak]