Being aggressive

goofball · #1 08-17-2005, 11:33 PM

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.40 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.20 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises.

wackjob · #2 08-17-2005, 11:34 PM

I think its an ok bluff. If your opponent is not going to fold, I would just fold the turn.

weevil · #3 08-17-2005, 11:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.40 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.20 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without a read, this seems like chip spewing, pre and postflop. Flop is fine. You're getting 4:1 to call on the turn, and 2:1 raising, your draw is 11:1, so you need him to fold the turn immediately almost half the time, or if you continue the river without improving, fold there more than half the time. A donkbet on a flop of this texture is usually a weak hand that is going to get shown down.

EDIT, in other words, unless this guy always donks just a draw that he can fold if he doesn't make on the river, fold the turn.

Danenania · #4 08-18-2005, 12:34 AM

Not good. He already expects you to have an A and he's betting into you. PF is cool.

goofball · #5 08-18-2005, 01:16 AM

Here's my thinking on this kind of move. I've seen a lot of it in the 5/10 game the last few days. I've definietly been crazy value raisingi turn donkbettors btu a lot of times they fold. I think he thinks "this guy either has an A or he doesn't, if he has a K at least he won't raise me and he might fold, since I would otherwise checkcall down with my 5 or 7 I might as well bet. THere's no way he raises that A without having it so I can save a bet just in case"

The other thing he might think is

"I have a draw so I may as well bet it now, I don't think he checks through that A and he might fold to my semibluff."

I don't think he ever thinks:

"I have a crappy hand I want to showdown so I'm going to potentially cost myself an extra BB by betting since I"m going to showdown no matter what"

Chairman Wood · #6 08-18-2005, 02:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Here's my thinking on this kind of move. I've seen a lot of it in the 5/10 game the last few days. I've definietly been crazy value raisingi turn donkbettors btu a lot of times they fold. I think he thinks "this guy either has an A or he doesn't, if he has a K at least he won't raise me and he might fold, since I would otherwise checkcall down with my 5 or 7 I might as well bet. THere's no way he raises that A without having it so I can save a bet just in case"

The other thing he might think is

"I have a draw so I may as well bet it now, I don't think he checks through that A and he might fold to my semibluff."

I don't think he ever thinks:

"I have a crappy hand I want to showdown so I'm going to potentially cost myself an extra BB by betting since I"m going to showdown no matter what"

[/ QUOTE ]

Valid thinking... I haven't played much this week but I do observe some of this at the PP 5/10. However, a read on a player "such as likes to monkey lead the turn with mid, bottom or small pocket pairs or whenever he picks up a draw" would help. Even some stats would be nice.

Monty Cantsin · #7 08-18-2005, 03:15 AM

I hate it. Statistically, if they call the pfr and call the K-high flop they're less likely to fold. If he's betting out with a something other than an A or K then it's often some kind of draw that just picked up a bunch more outs, like, say, Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 10[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Since you can't show down against any of his drawing hands you'll need to fire again on the river, so you're really running a 3 street bluff with no read against someone who has shown he likes his hand. Not good.

/mc

Apocalypse · #8 08-18-2005, 05:28 AM

(haven't read other reply's)
Questions to answer:

Do i know his play really well?(no ->fold)

Is there even a remote chance he plays an ace this way? (yes -> fold)

Is there even a remote chance he plays a king this way? (yes -> fold)

Is he capable of folding any pair HU below kings or aces? (no-> fold)

Would he play any pair below king or ace this way?(yes->wether you raise or fold you determine by how he perceives you and the respect he gives your raise)

i guess thats all,

kurosh · #9 08-18-2005, 06:50 AM

Very bad. You will get 3-bet or called down close to 100% of the time.

meow_meow · #10 08-18-2005, 07:48 AM

Initially, I hated this a lot. Turn donks have been giving me a lot of trouble lately.

I think your reasoning is pretty good, but only applies to some players. A lot of decent players will bet an ace on the turn for fear that you'll check behind, or bet a strong hand hoping you'll raise.

So, very opponent dependant and as already mentioned, you are pretty much committed to betting the river if he calls the turn.