Don't worry about smart play, just pot bet the best hand, they call.

[mxyzptlk]

I really like your discussion group style Ribbo. You like to think of yourself as resident expert where you just eventually want me to say "yes sir, you have rammed my ass enough, I am a lowly trout". Do you want to discuss my point that waiting to turn to put money in will make the same about of cash with lower variability, or would you like to continue to call me names, and imply that you are here for people just to stroke your ego?

[mxyzptlk]

Why not HU? Because there is no chance of dead money and you don't have as good a chance of getting highly favorable pot odds?

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]
I really like your discussion group style Ribbo. You like to think of yourself as resident expert where you just eventually want me to say "yes sir, you have rammed my ass enough, I am a lowly trout". Do you want to discuss my point that waiting to turn to put money in will make the same about of cash with lower variability, or would you like to continue to call me names, and imply that you are here for people just to stroke your ego?

[/ QUOTE ]

It wont nearly make the same amount of cash. If your opponent hits his out, you check fold, if your opponent hits his low draw, he is freerolling you. If you hit your full house, your opponent is NOT going to pay you off with a straight draw or a flush draw.

As much as you think people are idiots, pretty much most of them don't chase a flush or a straight once the board pairs, unless they have a live draw (in other words A2)
You have to give people a reason to call your bets, if they think they can win, they will call. As the chance of them winning decreases, so does the chance of them realising this and folding increase. I first pointed this out just over a year ago on my website in my second hand history.
http://www.ribbo.com/omaha2.htm

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
I really like your discussion group style Ribbo. You like to think of yourself as resident expert where you just eventually want me to say "yes sir, you have rammed my ass enough, I am a lowly trout". Do you want to discuss my point that waiting to turn to put money in will make the same about of cash with lower variability, or would you like to continue to call me names, and imply that you are here for people just to stroke your ego?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mzyoxplcjlgkjstxk, in a situation like this where someone is just pissing you off, I find a picture is more effective than a paragraph. Like this one, for example:

[mxyzptlk]

Thanks mute.

[FeliciaLee]

[ QUOTE ]
What I am worried about here is schooling, where the outs of the other fish collude to outdraw me.

[/ QUOTE ]
Schooling doesn't happen in O8. Your hand gets stronger with competition, not weaker.

Maybe you are thinking in a HE or Stud mindset.

I think you are getting some great advice from Ribbo and Winter. Their styles may be very pushy to you, but they are really going out of their way to give you some answers. No one is forcing them to teach you a better approach, they are giving you advice for free. It may sting, but gobble it up for what it is worth.

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not HU? Because there is no chance of dead money and you don't have as good a chance of getting highly favorable pot odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct, the overlay issue is the most important.

There are other factors involved, but they depend on whether your opponent is good or not. Suppose you have a known good opponent who bets. You very well may be behind or neutral EV-wise in the hand, as I showed in my previous example (this virtually cannot happen when the hand is being contested multiway). If you are well ahead, then he will just fold to your raise anyway, so little will be gained (although a lot will not be lost, to be sure). Also, there is some value to deception here, since the opponent may just fold to a flop raise but will call a big turn bet on a card that you like. At higher limits, where players are for the most part conherent thinkers and credible bettors, I prefer to just call in this scenario.

On the other hand, if your opponent is known to be stupid (or you have an unknown at lower limits), I suppose I might be willing to take the risk that I'm behind to get some significant money in on the flop.

Anyway, the point I was aiming to make was that the strategic distinction you made between the heads up scenario and multiway scenario was nearly exactly opposite of what I think is correct.

[Ribbo]

Even your smileys have a shaven head....

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
I really like your discussion group style Ribbo. You like to think of yourself as resident expert where you just eventually want me to say "yes sir, you have rammed my ass enough, I am a lowly trout". Do you want to discuss my point that waiting to turn to put money in will make the same about of cash with lower variability, or would you like to continue to call me names, and imply that you are here for people just to stroke your ego?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just decide why you're here on the forums, and it becomes much clearer how to react to the rest of it.

ribbo obviously did not get to beat up enough younger children as a schoolboy, while wintermute is a frustrated adult film photographer.

-g

[mxyzptlk]

Ok, I'm with you. However, do you worry whether it will get to be heads up or not, though? Does this factor in? For example, if you check and it gets check around to LP and you get a bet with you next to act and 3 players behind, do you still check raise? Don't you want some of their money in? A CR could drive them out and put you HU against a better hand in LP like you mentioned. Monsters under the bed? If the bet comes from from your left with some callers, then I can see the CR is more clear, because of the multiway/dead money/people feeling committed issue.