Struggling with JJ

[Nick C]

I, unfortunately, don't really know what range we should be giving a Pokerstars 0.25/0.5 unknown 3-bettor.

But here are some combos:

AA = 6
KK = 3
QQ = 6
AK = 12

TT = 6
AQ = 16

So if he's a tight (or passive) 3-bettor, the situation is not looking too favorable, and this becomes more true if he would not 3-bet AQ. (If, on the other hand, if he likes to 3-bet with a wide range of pocket pairs, then that helps.)

However, the pot's not empty. All the same, I think the line you took is okay. Among other things, UTG+1's flop call is somewhat discouraging.

I'm tempted to call down, though (well, unless another overcard falls).

Leading the flop is something else to consider, but this does lose some of its value if MP2 won't fold QQ or AQ (and I doubt he will) and will bet if checked to anyway.

[Nick C]

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2) I should define "statistically unlikely:" his range of hands don't necessitate that he hit a K on that flop.

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I agree that we're not necessarily behind.

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2) I should define "statistically unlikely:" his range of hands don't necessitate that he hit a K on that flop.

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I agree that we're not necessarily behind.

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But with two callers on a 3-bet preflop, and then the pre-flop play, isn't it more likely that we are behind rather than not? Perhaps villain is overplaying TT or AQ, but the call from UTG+1 is concerning. No one has mentioned the flush draw on board. Not only could I be behind, but I have to consider what I'd do if I called and a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] came on the turn.

[VoraciousReader]

Grunching, again. (And be warned, I am lousy at poker and despise playing JJ.)

I'm not sure this was a great choice for your sample hand. With MP2 3-betting pre-flop, we are behind almost all of his likely holdings. Unfortunately, since you checked, you can't be 100% sure you're behind. Pot is already large and I want to make at least a stab at it. I bet out here and fold if I get raised.

If your overall strategy is to fold if an overcard comes, like you say in your post, I think that is very tight. Someone won't always have a K. They won't always have a Q. They won't EVEN always have an A. (Although if it's 5 to the flop and an ace falls, I fold my JJ.)

Let's say it was the other way around...pre-flop another player raised and you 3-bet. He/She could be raising all sorts of things, and if he/she bets out on that flop, I would think about a raise. If I'm reraised or called and then bet into again on the turn, then I'm done.

I think the better players around here are going to tell you it's not your preflop raise that needs to change but your post-flop play. Now I'll go see.

Edit: I see my weak-tight disease is back. Crap.

[Nick C]

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But with two callers on a 3-bet preflop, and then the pre-flop play, isn't it more likely that we are behind rather than not?

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Only two other players saw the flop with you, but, yes, I do think you're probably behind.

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Perhaps villain is overplaying TT or AQ,

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If he has either of those hands, I don't think he's really overplaying them. If I had, for instance, TT, I would have played the hand the same way he has, up until the point where the action ends in your original post.

(I would have folded AQo to your preflop raise, but then I take the gap concept farther than some 2+2ers do. If I had 3-bet AQ preflop though, I probably would have fired with it when checked to on the flop, most likely, planning to fold to a checkraise. This possibly isn't so wise versus a PFR at 0.25/0.5, on that board, but it's what I'd probably do at 3/6 or 5/10.)

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the call from UTG+1 is concerning.

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I agree.

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No one has mentioned the flush draw on board. Not only could I be behind, but I have to consider what I'd do if I called and a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] came on the turn.

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If MP2 bet that heart and UTG+1 folded, I would call.

You have a heart too. I know it's not the greatest flush draw in the world, but I'm not so quick to fold flush draws, heads-up.

If UTG+1 checkraised instead on a heart, I would fold.

If he just called, well, then then that's a tough spot.

Anyway, one thing to consider is that MP2 may not always fire on the turn, after being called in two places on the flop. After he checks behind (if he does), you'll wish you could go back and bet instead of checking, but you will at least then have more reason to be optimistic about the hand (though you could, of course, still be losing to UTG+1 or even to MP2, if he has QQ and is scared).

[Dave G.]

How you proceed after the flop depends on how passive your opponent is here, but I bet this flop every time. Only 3 players saw the flop and a K is certainly not guaranteed, or even that likely. Even an A I'd still bet and an A is probably more likely. They don't know that you have JJ, they will fear that you have AK or KQ or something. If MP2 is 3-betting PF something like QQ here, you definitely want to give him the chance to fold.

If raised, I'd call and either fold the turn UI, or call down depending on how passive the opponent is. If he's very passive, then I hate being raised on the flop and can safely fold the turn.

If the board came with AK though, I'd be much more inclined to check/fold.

[VoraciousReader]

I've been thinking about this hand. I see why most of you would call the flop raise that I said I'd fold to. (Or, anyway, I think I do, please correct me if I'm wrong...
small chance we're ahead+large pot+implied odds if we hit ...looks like we'll get action= call. And perhaps just a tiny bit of table image...not betting and folding in the same street if it's a close call.)

But assuming we don't improve on the turn, we check, and same player bets again, it seems many of you would call down. Which is the part that I don't quite get.

Am I overestimating the likelihood that we're behind here? If villain hadn't 3-bet preflop, I would call down as long as the K was the only overcard. But when a typical micro player (which I think is passive) 3 bets, I tend to think they have AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, or AK. Maybe AQ, but probably not. Ruling out JJ ex hypothesi, we are way behind to everything he holds on the flop except TT/AQ. And we have a 3rd player calling.

I don't think I would pay 2 BBs to see a showdown here. (But I'm very open to being wrong, would really appreciate some commentary here.)

Thx,
Amanda

[Nick C]

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I've been thinking about this hand. I see why most of you would call the flop raise that I said I'd fold to. (Or, anyway, I think I do, please correct me if I'm wrong...
small chance we're ahead+large pot+implied odds if we hit ...looks like we'll get action= call. And perhaps just a tiny bit of table image...not betting and folding in the same street if it's a close call.)

But assuming we don't improve on the turn, we check, and same player bets again, it seems many of you would call down. Which is the part that I don't quite get.

Am I overestimating the likelihood that we're behind here? If villain hadn't 3-bet preflop, I would call down as long as the K was the only overcard. But when a typical micro player (which I think is passive) 3 bets, I tend to think they have AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, or AK. Maybe AQ, but probably not. Ruling out JJ ex hypothesi, we are way behind to everything he holds on the flop except TT/AQ. And we have a 3rd player calling.

I don't think I would pay 2 BBs to see a showdown here. (But I'm very open to being wrong, would really appreciate some commentary here.)

Thx,
Amanda

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If I bet the flop and was raised and UTG+1 cold-called, I'd be check-folding the turn unimproved.

I'd probably do the same even if UTG+1 folded the flop.

And I don't have a big problem with just bet-folding the flop, actually. I think it might be the best line. (Edit: Ugh. Except that we do have some set outs and a very weak backdoor flush and some implied odds and some uncertainty about how the turn action will go in this now largeish pot, which could be reasons to peel.)

Edit: If we bet the flop and are raised, I think the chances that we're behind are very big. Actually, once the flop comes and brings a king, I think we're already probably behind, prior to any action, but then again the pot isn't empty.

[VoraciousReader]

Thanks. That helps me feel like I'm not completly lost in the dark. (Which is how I often feel with JJ.)

-A

[BritNewbie]

Do you have Small Stakes Hold'Em by Ed Miller et al?
If you do, read page 259.
If you don't, buy a copy. It's great.