Who are these people?

[weevil]

BB is 37/10/.6/25 over 50 hands
CO is 70/13/2/70 over 30 hands

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 caps</font>, Hero calls, CO calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls, BB calls.

Turn: (12.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, BB folds, Hero calls.

River: (16.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero ... ?

I always face these kinds of hands two or three times a session, and each time I'm completely surprised by the hand shown.

[Nick C]

CO is so loose that it's very difficult to put him on a hand here. But he did pop the turn after calling your flop 3-bet, and I don't think that's such a good sign, despite his LAGginess.

Hopefully he just has A6 or 98 or 88 or something and simply picked up a gutshot on the turn, or he has A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and picked up a flush draw, or he simply still liked his AT, but I'm not especially optimistic.

I'm checking and calling the river. I don't want to pay two bets to see a showdown, and I'm not taking a line that involves folding TPTK against this guy.

Bet-calling is my second choice. (An aggression factor of 2 is very high for someone with a 70 VP$IP, after all. That said, CO is not letting the preflop action coupled with the ace on the board concern him, and this worries me.)

[weevil]

[ QUOTE ]
CO is so loose that it's very difficult to put him on a hand here. But he did pop the turn after calling your flop 3-bet, and I don't think that's such a good sign, despite his LAGginess.

Hopefully he just has A6 or 98 or 88 or something and simply picked up a gutshot on the turn, or he has A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and picked up a flush draw, or he simply still liked his AT, but I'm not especially optimistic.

I'm checking and calling the river. I don't want to pay two bets to see a showdown, and I'm not taking a line that involves folding TPTK against this guy.

Bet-calling is my second choice. (An aggression factor of 2 is very high for someone with a 70 VP$IP, after all. That said, CO is not letting the preflop action coupled with the ace on the board concern him, and this worries me.)

[/ QUOTE ]

When I said I'm always surprised at showdown after these kinds of hands (where I clearly have TPTK or better on a nondrawy board), it means I find I was either way ahead to a crazy bluff, or was crushed on the flop. From these characters, it's more often a bluff on the end, which is why I'm wondering if a check/raise call a 3bet is the best line, or bet/call a raise. In the first case, I get him to bet almost all the time unless he really just has [censored] and has realized he's not going to move me off a hand, which very few of these guys can actually appreciate, and will get 3bet raised with many hands that I beat. I think bet/calling will almost always assure me a single bet, but won't get as many BBs in as often. It's definately the safer line though.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
When I said I'm always surprised at showdown after these kinds of hands (where I clearly have TPTK or better on a nondrawy board), it means I find I was either way ahead to a crazy bluff, or was crushed on the flop. From these characters, it's more often a bluff on the end, which is why I'm wondering if a check/raise call a 3bet is the best line, or bet/call a raise. In the first case, I get him to bet almost all the time unless he really just has [censored] and has realized he's not going to move me off a hand, which very few of these guys can actually appreciate, and will get 3bet raised with many hands that I beat. I think bet/calling will almost always assure me a single bet, but won't get as many BBs in as often. It's definately the safer line though.

[/ QUOTE ]

There aren't really that many completely crazy bluffs available -- on the turn, anyway. Just about anything you're beating has some outs against you.

If you're confident you're ahead even after the turn raise, I'm thinking a 3-bet at that point is something to consider.

Anyway, though, bet-call stop-n-go lines can be good against habitual bluff-raisers.

I don't know. I like bet-calling the river more than I like checkraise-calling. I'm less optimistic about my chances of being best than you are, but then you were at the table and I wasn't, and 2/4 can be crazy sometimes. Also, CO does have very LAG stats.