JJ - OOP against a 4 flush??? How do you play this...

Sasnak · #1 08-14-2005, 06:32 PM

No reads on villain at the time. He did leave after 22 hands at 31/18/10 if that helps anyone else besides me.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, UTG+2 3-bets, 7 folds, Hero caps, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero???

ViperGTS · #2 08-14-2005, 06:39 PM

Check/fold, there are no cards that will help you (well, nothing that will beat the 9 hearts left out there) at this point & you lose to any heart.

Your only option other than that is to raise & hope to fold a low heart (obviously mucking to a re-raise), but given the pre-flop + aggression on the flop you're probably SOL.

Viper GTS

eviljeff · #3 08-14-2005, 06:39 PM

Clarkmeister's theorem dictates that you bet. fold to a raise, obviously.

ViperGTS · #4 08-14-2005, 06:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Clarkmeister's theorem dictates that you bet. fold to a raise, obviously.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't that require that you likely have the best hand?

That might have applied on the flop but given the flop raise + the now 4-flush on board I think it'd be questionable.

Viper GTS

BatsShadow · #5 08-14-2005, 06:47 PM

That only applies to the 4th flush card falling on the river.

hemstock · #6 08-14-2005, 06:47 PM

Check/fold

bozlax · #7 08-14-2005, 06:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Clarkmeister's theorem dictates that you bet. fold to a raise, obviously.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't that require that you likely have the best hand?

That might have applied on the flop but given the flop raise + the now 4-flush on board I think it'd be questionable.

Viper GTS

[/ QUOTE ]

Clarkmeister doesn't even require that you HAVE a hand. It does, however, require that the 4th suited card fall on the river.

MrWookie47 · #8 08-14-2005, 07:00 PM

Clarks is a split between a value bet and a bluff. It usually does indeed require that you have something.

detruncate · #9 08-14-2005, 07:04 PM

Clarkmeister's theorem is about minimizing the disadvantage of being out of position when the board becomes super scary on the river. We're facing a different set of problems here.

detruncate · #10 08-14-2005, 07:13 PM

I have to think that JJ is on the lower end of an early position 3-bet from an average player -- I just call OOP + HU, planning to get away from really scary boards and encouraging him to try to bet me out of the pot on relatively safe ones.

We have to bet the flop, but I think about folding to the flop raise. He's a favourite with as little as a flush draw + one over, and we're drawing nearly dead when behind.

Calling the flop raise has to be because we hope he's on a flush draw or suceptible to a bluff or bluffing himself. I'm reluctant to put him on a bluff without a good read, and he still might have overcard outs given his pf 3-bet. If he's on a flush draw, we're obviously pooched once the flush completes. We have no real way of deciding whether he's susceptible to a bluff without throwing one out there, but I'm not thrilled about our prospects given that he raised the pf capper on a monotone board. I'd guess that the combined chances of flush + a strong hand he's willing to show down are enough to make bluffing unprofitable.

I check/fold.