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#41
08-14-2005, 01:08 PM
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Re: Friends colluding
People who take part in an "inappropriate" activity tend to believe that the activity is quite common. You'll find this true in general life: someone who holds out on people will suspect others of holding out on them; someone who lies will doubt the truth of others' statements; someone who does things just to spite people will believe others are doing things just to spite them.
In just the same way, people who collude believe there are lots of other colluders out there. They convince themselves of it by telling each other it's true; this excuses the activity to themselves. This leads to the twisted logic that says, "cheating is fair if eveyone can cheat. . . and since everyone cheats, the only way to keep up is to cheat as well!" There are two big reasons to turn your friends in. The first is that they are going down a path that leads to a LOT of problems in life. People who cheat and meet with a little success tend to go a little further, and a little further, until they get seriously hurt. They can be stung financially, they can be stung legally, they might even try it in a dorm game and get the crap beaten out of them. Now, some may say they deserve it -- but if they are your friends, do they deserve your help in getting there? The second reason to turn them in is because you are part of a society, and you want the society to work. The society, as a group, gets ahead when everyone plays by the rules. Cheaters who don't play by the rules can get ahead at the expense of the rest, but only if they don't get caught. But if cheaters don't get caught, more and more people cheat, and then society as a whole gets dragged down. It's not different than trying to do "business" in countries with highly corrupt governments -- officials demand bribes to get by because conditions are bad, but conditions are bad because businesses tend not to invest in areas that are overly corrupt. Everyone cheats because everyone else cheats, but then the whole system is weaker for it. It's your obligation as a member of society to help society police itself. Every time a cheater does not get caught because someone is unwilling to report it, society is harmed -- and the cheaters will go on to inspire other potential cheaters. You need to report these cheaters for the sake of the suckers they cheated. . . just as you need OTHER people to report the cheaters who suckered you, even if you don't know it happened. Your friends are tearing at the moral fabric of the society you all depend on, and you owe it to yourself, them, and to society itself to be the rip-stop in that fabric. You owe it to your friends to put the kabbash on their temptation to cheat. It's like a lock -- if someone REALLY wants to break in, a lock will not stop them. Locks "keep honest people honest" by preventing minor temptations -- like the buddy who WOULD have taken some of your Pepsis if you left your dorm room unlocked, but who is otherwise a good guy. What I would have done: 1. Advise your friends to cash out the winnings ASAP, as they're likely to get caught. If any of the burned people complain, the site's people will check the logs. The pot-slamming (which is the proper term for what they did) is obvious and they WILL get caught. 2. Next day, anonymously notify the site of the time/date/names for the pot slamming. If your friends are not idiots, they will have withdrawn their money, but their accounts will be locked. You've done them no harm. Even so, they'll at least know that the cheating is not risk-free. They will probably have difficulty signing up again, but that is appropriate. Also, the people against whom they colluded may get some bonus money from the house to cover their losses. The bonus is more likely if the harmed party makes the report, of course, but the fleeced usually don't realize they are sheep for quite some time, and may never report it. 
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#42
08-14-2005, 01:15 PM
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Re: Friends colluding
What if your brother, sister or other family member were cheating online? Would you report them too?
I don't like the idea of cheaters in my game, but there's no way in hell I'd ever report ANYONE even remotely close to me. Friends and family (regardless of how close you are to them) are supposed to stick together. I'd try my damn best to get them to stop cheating, perhaps I'd point them in the direction of 2+2 or some poker books, I don't know, but short of that, I won't do much else.
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#43
08-14-2005, 03:41 PM
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Re: Friends colluding
[ QUOTE ]
What if your brother, sister or other family member were cheating online? Would you report them too? [/ QUOTE ] Hypotheticals are tough, and unless the OP just made this whole disaster up we aren't talking about an hypothetical situation...but okay, I'll answer. The "right" thing to do would be to report them. I would confront them, give them a day or two to get their money out and then turn them in. They may get caught without me and if so they'll lose everything. You criticized someone else for hyperbole earlier but the "what if it's your sister?" stuff doesn't help the discussion too much. [ QUOTE ] I don't like the idea of cheaters in my game, but there's no way in hell I'd ever report ANYONE even remotely close to me. Friends and family (regardless of how close you are to them) are supposed to stick together. [/ QUOTE ] I respect your opinion and appreciate the difficulty...but I think that you're wrong. At what level of crime should a person's conscience kick in? This is, after all, theft.
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#46
08-14-2005, 04:40 PM
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Re: Friends colluding
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] What if your brother, sister or other family member were cheating online? Would you report them too? [/ QUOTE ] Hypotheticals are tough, and unless the OP just made this whole disaster up we aren't talking about an hypothetical situation...but okay, I'll answer. The "right" thing to do would be to report them. I would confront them, give them a day or two to get their money out and then turn them in. They may get caught without me and if so they'll lose everything. You criticized someone else for hyperbole earlier but the "what if it's your sister?" stuff doesn't help the discussion too much. Well, many of us have family members who also play poker, it isn't that much of a stretch that some of them might be cheaters. It's hypothetical, sure, but it's far from hyperbole. [ QUOTE ] I don't like the idea of cheaters in my game, but there's no way in hell I'd ever report ANYONE even remotely close to me. Friends and family (regardless of how close you are to them) are supposed to stick together. [/ QUOTE ] I respect your opinion and appreciate the difficulty...but I think that you're wrong. At what level of crime should a person's conscience kick in? This is, after all, theft. [/ QUOTE ] You're right about this though. The level at which your conscience kicks in is different for everyone. For me, cheating in a card game, however despicable, especially to me as a poker player, doesn't cross the limit. There's a fuzzy gray area, that's for sure. I know I wouldn't report my sister for J-walking, but sure as hell would if she went on a murderous rampage. The stuff inbetween is the tough part.
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#48
08-14-2005, 06:33 PM
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Re: Friends colluding
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] In just the same way, people who collude believe there are lots of other colluders out there. [/ QUOTE ] They believe that becasue it's true. [/ QUOTE ] You colluder, you! Seriously, though, those who collude think it's more widespread than it is. I'm not saying there's none, but there is a real level and their perceived level. It's like fudging on taxes and embellishing resumes. . . psychologists have specifically studied both of these. There is a direct and linear relationship between how strongly a person believed that others embellish their resume and how much they reported embellishing their own resume. The same was true for people fudging on taxes. The majority of people who do such things really think they're behaving much like everyone else.
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#49
08-14-2005, 06:36 PM
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Re: Friends colluding
[ QUOTE ]
You're right about this though. The level at which your conscience kicks in is different for everyone. For me, cheating in a card game, however despicable, especially to me as a poker player, doesn't cross the limit. There's a fuzzy gray area, that's for sure. I know I wouldn't report my sister for J-walking, but sure as hell would if she went on a murderous rampage. The stuff inbetween is the tough part. [/ QUOTE ] For me, there's a huge difference between cheating at a "card game" and cheating at a "money game." Cheating at a round of hearts with the friends? No big deal. It's just a game. Cheating in poker when playing for real money? Huge deal. It's theft of money, and is no less serious than any other con job.
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#50
08-14-2005, 06:44 PM
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Re: Friends colluding
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] You're right about this though. The level at which your conscience kicks in is different for everyone. For me, cheating in a card game, however despicable, especially to me as a poker player, doesn't cross the limit. There's a fuzzy gray area, that's for sure. I know I wouldn't report my sister for J-walking, but sure as hell would if she went on a murderous rampage. The stuff inbetween is the tough part. [/ QUOTE ] For me, there's a huge difference between cheating at a "card game" and cheating at a "money game." Cheating at a round of hearts with the friends? No big deal. It's just a game. Cheating in poker when playing for real money? Huge deal. It's theft of money, and is no less serious than any other con job. [/ QUOTE ] Oh I completely agree, but when it comes down to family and friends, it becomes a tough issue. I never meant to imply that it isn't a big deal, it's a huge deal and I am totally against it.
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