"Middle Limit Holdem Poker" question

[Net Warrior]

In a MLHP example an EP limps, a MP limps, the Co raises, & it's folded to hero in the small blind holding QTs. They say to fold but I'm not so sure I agree.

a) Hero is getting 5:1 pot odds assuming EP & MP come along.
b) While hero is "out of position", there are some strategic advantages to acting 1st with the raiser on your immediate right. Depending on if and how the flop hits your hand you can bet out putting pressure on the limpers, or you can play for a check raise.

Is this really an EV- situation?

[elysium]

hi net
it looks like a call, but you must fold these everytime.

[Net Warrior]

Well, since silence can be seen as consent, it seems everyone else that read this post agrees with you. I expected some disagreement and debate but I guess not. Thanks for your reply.

[David Steele]

It depends on who the other players are that are in,
and especially the raiser, but I would say there
are many times when a call is in order.

D.

[Rushmore]

I disagree that this is a "fold every time" situation.

I DO, however, think that far too many people call far too many bets with this hand in this position.

I would call it a "fold against most players" situation.

[Net Warrior]

Maybe that's why I felt it was an EV+ situation. I'm pretty game selective and always play in loose passive on line games. So unless my opponents step out of character I shouldn't find myself in trouble with this hand that often. Thanks.

[Net Warrior]

Ok, so I'm get the message that I should approach this hand with some caution, and as I noted above, wait for loose passive opponents before playing it. Thanks.

[rtrombone]

You're admittedly getting decent odds here because the limpers are definitely going to call and the big blind may, too, if you call. The odds don't matter, though, if you're dominated.

This is probably the determining factor here. The guy likely has a real hand. He raised two limpers. The problem with QTs is that either one of your cards may be dominated. He could have AQ offsuit, KQs, ATs, etc. Note that with something like 87s you're a lot less concerned about being dominated. (Not that you'd call with 87s here.)

I think if it's going to cost 1 1/2 small bets to call (the small blind is half a small bet), I will fold unless the CO is a known loose raiser. If it's 1 1/3 small bets, I will call a little more often. Not if I respect the CO's raises, though. Against an unknown, I'd lean toward folding. It can't be that bad a play, especially if the big blind folds and you see the flop 4-handed.

[Net Warrior]

I'm pretty sure that in the example the SB was 1/2 bet. That's why I arrived at the 5:1 pot odds figure I gave. Regarding being dominated, of course your are right, but if I thought I couldn't get away from the hand correctly I wouldn't play it in the 1st place. I also agree with what you imply, that if the Co is a good player or a rock then it's a fold. Thanks for helping me futher clarify my thinking.

[Tyler Durden]

I think I'd probably want to call with 87s here. It's questionable in the SB, but an automatic call for me in the BB. You can get away easily if you don't flop well.

Anyone disagree?