L08, play this differently?

[Sean D]

I think preflop and flop are standard, but when UTG+1 donk-bets the turn, I slowed down.

Party Poker (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, <font color="red">Hero raises</font>, 4 folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="red">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="red">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, BB calls.

River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="red">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls, Button folds, BB folds.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I think preflop and flop are standard,

[/ QUOTE ]

Sean - Maybe it’s “standard” for some, but unless you raise before the flop with almost everything you play, and unless you play a lot of hands, in general I truly believe it’s a very poor play to raise before the flop from early position in a full ring limit-Omaha-8 game with your hand.

You do have a very nice starting hand, almost surely the best hand at the table - and probably the best starting hand you’ll see at this table for the next hour or so - and maybe for the rest of this playing session or maybe even the rest of the week. It's that good - a top notch starting hand, in spite of having the five suited instead of the ace. It would be a top notch starting hand (but not quite as good) even if a rainbow. It's a damned fine starting hand!

<ul type="square">A digression: If you can see the flop cheaply, at tables where opponents will chase (continue after the flop with poor flop fits, and/or continue after the turn with poor odds to do so, and/or pay off on the river with losers they should have folded after the flop), you’re actually getting enormous implied odds to see the flop with a multitude of hands - many more hands than you should probably play in a tight game against expert opponents.

Continuing the digression:But if you get to see the flop cheaply, so do your opponents. Sometimes, especially when you're trying to either steal the blinds or get one-on-one with a blind, you don’t want your opponents taking advantage of these enormous implied pot odds, and then you raise before the flop. But honestly, unless you're playing in a tournament, it's rather difficult to steal the blinds or get one-on-one with a blind. (The attempt to steal the blinds or get one-on-one with a blind simply doesn't work very well in a typical, full, low-limit ring game, if at all). Probably has a better chance in pot limit or six-max, I'd guess. You do tend to limit the field with an early position raise, but you don't knock out everyone and your don't even get one-on-one with a blind. More likely you end up with three opponents, as here. Depends, I guess.

Continuing the digression:Or sometimes your opponents will be unaffected by your raise, or might even be more likely to play, and will mostly not be able to get a read on your hand because of your raise - and then you might raise before the flop with good starting hands. Or sometimes you want to isolate an opponent, and at tables where that is possible, then you raise. (And there are probably other reasons to raise as well - but having A235s- is not, in my humble opinion, necessarily one of them).

Continuing the digression:Rather than raising, more usually you should want to take advantage of the enormous implied odds by seeing the flop as cheaply as possible - even though your opponents also get to see the flop cheaply and thus will also have enormously favorable implied odds. If you have skill at the game, part of your skill will be knowing better than your opponents where you stand after the flop. And after the flop, in Omaha-8, it’s a new ball game. You can have a great Omaha-8 starting hand, and it can be pure junk after the flop. Or you can have a poor starting hand and it might be great after the flop.

Continuing the digression:You still do like good starting hands, because they’re less likely than mediocre or poor starting hands to be junk after the flop. But after the flop it’s a brand new ball game, and if you have skill, here is where you will start to out-shine your opponents. Almost anybody can follow a list of starting hands, raising with those above average and folding the rest. But knowing where they stand after the flop (and later), and manipulating their opponents accordingly, is where expert players shine.

Continuing the digression:Of course, when you start the game, you’re obsessed with starting hands and if you come from a Texas hold ‘em background, and especially if you’ve been watching tournaments on TV, you’re obsessed with raising before the flop when you have the best hand. You hear it over and over: “Get your money in when you have the best of it.” I don’t want to say that’s not true in Omaha-8, but relative to opponents, I think a good player has even more of an advantage after the flop than before.

Continuing the digression:And usually you'll have a drawing hand after the flop - and then you'll want customers (chasers) to pay you off when you make your draw. Omaha-8 is completely different from Texas hold 'em in this respect.
End of digression. [/list]
One could make a much better case for pre-flop raising with cards such as yours from the cut-off-seat, the button, or the blinds. At least raising after opponents had a chance to limp, you wouldn’t be immediately pushing potential chasers out of the pot - and after opponents have committed two bets on the opening betting round, they’re more likely to be pot committed later. (But even from late position, I don’t think you necessarily make a pre-flop raise with your starting hand - depending, of course, on your style of play and your opponents).

In this particular instance, perhaps you ended up winning with a very mediocre and vulnerable full house. If more of your opponents had seen the flop, would one of them have hung in there and ended up making a better winning hand than yours? (I have no idea). If so, your pre-flop raise, which seemed to immediately limit the field, (and if UTG+1 didn't have a better full house) worked to your advantage. But usually, I think, it would not. Indeed, in this particular instance, if UTG+1 held a pair of nines, as the betting seems to indicate as a strong possibility (or A29X or A2QX or QQXY), your pre-flop raise did not work to your advantage.

I have no suggestions for your post flop play. Looks to me as though you played fine on the second, third, and fourth betting rounds.

And don't misunderstand; you can certainly raise before the flop with your very fine starting hand, even from early position. But I believe it will at least strengthen your game if you give some deeper thought to the effect your pre-flop raise will have on your opponents.

But "standard"?? Just because you have a top notch starting hand?? It's certainly not standard for me.

I do like your bet after two checks on the second betting round - even though there are two hearts on the board and you only have the second nut low draw with bottom two pairs. But, alas, then everybody calls. Could be they're simply very poor players - or could be they have something - hard to tell from the given info.

Then when UTG+1 bets the turn, could be UTG+1 put you on a semi-bluff (with A23X) after a busted flop. Or could be UTG+1 is blowing steam. Or could be UTG+1 is afraid you won't bet. Hard to tell - and since it's hard to tell, I think you're generally stuck calling in a ring game.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Sean D]

Thanks Buzz. Your posts are usually well thought out, and certainly make me think about the game on a different level. Okay, so preflop wasn't necessarily "standard" but the table was actually fairly tight for a party game. I only had stats for like 6 of them, but total vpip was below 40, and I thought there was a good chance I'd have only one or two callers. Occasionally I will mix up a limp with strong hands like this in EP. Because in these games, an EP raise usually means at least a suited A2W. So a raise gives away most of your hand.

But anyway, UTG+1 showed a sloppily played J699 and took the pot.

[Yads]

I like the PF raise, do you want people with a naked A2 putting bets in? yes, do you want people with better spade connectors folding? yes. Plus you can buy the button and have position after the flop. A case can definitely be made for not raising PF as Buzz said, but I like this raise. I don't like your call on the river though, you have the worst possible full house. What did you put him on when he bet the turn?

[sy_or_bust]

I would be careful thinking this way. You most definitely do not want to "buy the Button" from UTG+2. A2o35 is a great low hand, but needs a very specific flop to win low or scoop, and position matters very little with Lo-only hands in LO8 (wheel notwithstanding). This hand loses a lot of value when the pot becomes shorthanded, and in a 2-3 handed pot you're not in great shape at all. Very often you simply will check and fold the flop.

This is best called without high chances, unless the game is particularly tough and uncharacteristic, because you don't mind opponents coming in with suited connectors and other high hands. The A2 hands will seldom adjust their play based on the preflop raise anyway, and you'd like to encourage limpers with hands like A3JT and A4KK, etc., to play along. When you flop well, their sets, flush draws, and 2nd nut low draws aren't hurting you, and plenty of opponents will continue with much less.

[sthief09]

hey buzz, I'm very new to this game, but I have a solid limit hold'em background, so I see what you're gettign at. I have a question that you didn't cover in your post. with these types of hands I have been limping up front or in EP, and repopping it if it comes back to me. I feel like people are unlikely to fold for 2 more after limping for one already. is this ok? do I want to be building such a big pot when I'll be releasing on the flop fairly often?

I've also noticed that thsi type of hands will often flop not much, but will have some very nice backdoor draws. like a multiway backdoor nut low draw, a backdoor flush draw, backdoor straight draw, etc. when I build pots up I'm often able to call getting somewhere in the neighborhood of 14-1, which carries some nice implied odds on the river when I hit, since there is very little jamming going on in these games on the turn.

and another question. what type of hand do I want to be raising here? would you raise with AA3Ks or AA44s? I feel like with these hands, you can potentially fold out A3 (or A4 in the case of AA44) with trashy side cards, and other moderate high-only hands which can take a chunk of equity out of your AA's high chances

also, for someone of your level, how much:
1. importance lies in preflop player vs. flop play
2. thhinking do you do preflop vs on the flop

and now to go on my own digression, what do you consider the most compelling reading to raise on the button with an A235-type hand to be? are you pushing an equity edge, or are you building a pot so they'll think they have pot odds to call you down when you have the nuts both ways?

you're exactly right about your comments about hold'em players. I playe a 500 hand session yesterday where I raised 13% of my hands. I think that makes me a borderline maniac. limit hold'em makes me a control freak. I have this need to have the intiative whenever I enter a pot

[Sean D]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the PF raise, do you want people with a naked A2 putting bets in? yes, do you want people with better spade connectors folding? yes. Plus you can buy the button and have position after the flop. A case can definitely be made for not raising PF as Buzz said, but I like this raise. I don't like your call on the river though, you have the worst possible full house. What did you put him on when he bet the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

High wrap with hearts? Q9? Theres too many bets in the pot to fold for one on the river. I'm getting 13-1 on the call and I'm certainly going to be good more than 8% of the time.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been limping up front or in EP, and repopping it if it comes back to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Thief - Rightly or wrongly, that's about the way I usually play hands like this too.

[ QUOTE ]
is this ok?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don’t know. I like it.

[ QUOTE ]
do I want to be building such a big pot when I'll be releasing on the flop fairly often?

[/ QUOTE ]

Holding A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], I think you'll like the flop much more often than you won't like the flop. Very roughly, you should like almost all flops with two or three low cards. Very roughly, you'll probably only fold to a bet on about two of every five possible flops.

Two out of five is “fairly often.”

However, you'll have a decent fit with the flop more often than not, and when you do have a decent flop fit, you'll go on to win at least a share of the pot more often than not.

Regarding back-door draws: In my humble opinion, they're not usually a good idea if that's all or mainly what you have going. In general, you won't have favorable odds, even with extra pre-flop action, to play back-door draws.

If you have two cards in a suit, you'll only make a back-door flush 36/990 or less than four per cent of the time - and part of that time the board will also pair.

If you have a back-door low draw with A235, say after a flop of 8-9-T, you'll mostly be playing for half the pot. You'll end up making the nut low 218/990 and a non-nut low another 28/990 - about 25% overall, but you'll get quartered and even sixthed some of that time. (Never a guarantee about my math).

One can make a case for back-door draws under certain conditions, but as a general rule of thumb, I think you generally do better by avoiding them. That's just my opinion. Back-door draws do add a bit to your other draws after the flop, another reason starting hands that are suited or double suited are better than rainbow starting hands.

Sometimes nobody will bet the flop and you'll get a free look at the turn. And then if you catch a favorable card and have a draw, it won't be a back-door draw anymore.

[ QUOTE ]
when I build pots up I'm often able to call getting somewhere in the neighborhood of 14-1, which carries some nice implied odds on the river when I hit,

[/ QUOTE ]

You generally get some very nice implied odds in loose games with chasers whether you build up pots or not.

How? Opponents build up pots themselves by staying in after they should have folded. (I call it chasing). They’re often even more prone to do that if they can see the flop cheaply. Depends.

For example, suppose five opponents usually see the flop for one bet each, then four see the turn for one bet each, then three see the river for one big bet each, then three see the showdown for one big bet each. Far fetched? Not at all. That was the norm for a while in the game I played yesterday afternoon. Over and over and over.

Were some of those opponents getting a peek at the flop with hands they should have folded before the flop? I think the answer would be "yes" if they were playing in a tight game or a game with at least fairly frequent pre-flop raises. However, in this particular type of game, where everybody is playing fairly loosely and nobody is raising much before the flop, I think the answer is "possibly."

Were some of those opponents getting a peek at the turn with hands they should have folded after the flop? And were they making a mistake in doing so?

Absolutely!

Were some of those opponents getting a peek at the river with hands they should have folded after the turn? And were they making a mistake in doing so?

Absolutely!

Some of those players were almost surely chasing. How does one take advantage of this common mistake (chasing)? In my humble opinion, you see more flops yourself (because of the great implied pot odds you're getting to do so), but then you play tightly after the flop yourself (rather than chasing). That's the jist of it, I think.

You obviously don’t want to be dribbling your chips away by chasing yourself after the flop. You want to play very well yourself after the flop.

And you obviously want to play well before the flop too. Too tight is not good because you have to be in the hand with someone when he/she makes a mistake to profit from the mistake. (Duh). But you obviously don’t want to be dribbling your chips away by playing too loosely before the flop. So I think there’s a balance point, a happy medium, which may not be the same for one group of opponents as another.

As to raises, well, it just depends - partly on your own cards, but mostly, I think, on your opponents.

For example, what would be the effect of frequent pre-flop raises on the juicy set-up described above? Well, I wasn't going to screw it up the sweet deal by trying myself - but eventually a new player sat down and started raising before the flop. What happened? Within a round of the table, the average number of players who saw the flop dropped to four and the number of players who stayed for a bet after the flop was closer to two than four. Within one round of the table, the whole dynamic of the table changed. The game changed rather suddenly from a juicy feast into a rock garden. Instead of getting 19 to 1 full pot implied odds and 9 to 1 half pot implied pot odds, I was getting 6 to 1 and 2.5 to 1, respectively. (Never a guarantee about my math).

How did the guy fare who was doing the pre-flop raising? His implied pot odds dropped the same as mine. Maybe he had fun, but I think nobody wins much in a rock garden - and.... well.... playing very tightly is sure is not as much fun as being able to loosen up a bit.

(I can play like a rock, but gee whiz, who wants to??!! However, one has to adapt to survive).

Just my opinion.

Buzz