Bellagio 15-30 & 30-60: UTG flopped nut flushes. Missed check-raises?

[Dynasty]

A rare two hand post! Both games were loose but a bit more aggressive than I wanted them to be. The 30-60 game was particularly aggressive.

Lately I've been playing my big hands by betting, betting, and betting with little trickery. I haven't been making any efforts to squeeze one extra bet out of opponents. I'll take one on every street if they'll give it to me.

Hand 1 (15-30 from late Friday night):

I'm UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and limp. I get 3 more limpers behind me in MP and LP. Both blinds play and the flop is take by six players for one bet each.

The flop is: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Small Blind checks. Aggressive woman in the Big Blind bets. I raise. The next player folds and then a loose but aggressive-when-he-has-it MP 3-bets. LP and Small Blind fold. Big Blind calls two more bets. I make it 4 bets and both players call.

The turn is: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Big Blind checks. I bet. MP raises. Small Blind folds. I 3 bet. MP calls.

The river is: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I bet and get called.

Right after the hand, it seemed clear to me that the MP had a big hand, maybe even the King-high flush, and thought he was good on the turn when he raised. I've played a similar hand before and had told myself that a river check-raise will often work in that spot. Anybody think I should have gone for it?

Hand 2 (30-60 from early Sunday morning):

I'm UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and limp. A loose MP calls. A regular and aggressive 30-60 player raises in LMP. The Button and one of the Blinds calls as do I and the MP. 5 players see the flop for 2 bets each.

The flop is: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

The Blind checks. I bet. MP folds. LMP pre-flop raiser calls. Button and Blind folds. Heads-up on the turn.

The turn is: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I bet and get called.

The river is: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

That puts four diamonds on the board. I bet. LMP pre-flop raiser throws his hands in the air in disgust and mucks.

In retrospect, it's clear that the LMP put me on the Ad for a flopped flush draw that got there on the river. With the "dangerous" King coming on the turn, is this a good spot for a turn check-raise? Or, do I bet hoping to get 3 bets in on the turn?

[Gabe]

Hand 1. I think usually yes.
Hand 2. No. Only if they will bet very weak hands and call check-raises with them. They might be calling with a very weak flush draw that they will not bet.
I usually do not play Axs UTG, but if i flopped as many flushes as you, I'd play anything suited.

[HDPM]

In the first hand your 3-bet on the turn w/ the opponent only calling makes a check raise iffy IMO. I can see the possibilities for a check raise, but you had a situation where you had a guarantteed call. I think I'd take the sure 1 bet in that spot. That's an hour of earn for you if you get cute and he checks behind. I guess tho if he bets it enough it is better to check raise, but I just don't see him betting enough after your 3B on the turn. As to the second hand the turn is the street for a check raise. 4 diamonds on board aren't going to allow the guy to bet the river of course. And the betting pattern on the hand sets up a ck raise better IMO.

Now, that time you check raised me on the river after I bet your set for you the whole way.....
(Well played but you might have gotten an extra bet w/ a turn check raise since I pay off like a slot machine.)

[rtrombone]

You can't go for a check-raise at the river in hand 1. At least, you can't unless you have some kind of exceptional read on your opponent. There are two reasons why: (1) You 3-bet the turn and now you check the river?! Most people will be flat-out confused by this action. When people are confused, they don't bet for value. They almost always play more passively. (2) A thinking opponent will ask himself why you didn't bet. If you have anything decent, why don't you? You know you're not going to get raised at the river, not after 3-betting the turn (and just getting called). So why check and call at the river? You're not going to induce many bluffs after 3-betting the turn. A thinking opponent will put you on something like the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], a hand which will not call a river bet, or your holding--the ace-high flush (with an outside chance of a straight-flush). The vast majority of hands in between, you're going to bet. Either you were getting cute at the turn or you're getting cute now.

There's also: (3) You feel really, really dumb when you get 3-bet at the turn and then check-raised at the river.

In hand 2, against a pretty aggressive player I would pause and then bet the turn. Hopefully, he raises so you can make it 3 bets. Some people will bet if checked to but will not raise your bet. Against these people, you are right that the king is a good card for a check-raise attempt.

But limping with Axs UTG in a loose and "particularly aggressive" game can't be right. Maybe if I was running good and flopping as many nut flushes as you were.

(I still wouldn't.)

[jkinetic]

You posted, "Both games were loose but a bit more aggressive than I wanted them to be. The 30-60 game was particularly aggressive."

If that was the case, what were you doing limping in with those hands in the first place???

Hoping to flop a flush???

As far as the check raising goes in hand 1 I would have gone for it since you categorize MP as "loose but aggressive-when-he-has-it".

In hand 2, I would just bet out as you did, since your position is so poor just get the money in the pot.

On a side note, if you flop an ace, at any point can you lay it down?

[Dynasty]

I think everyone can just stop the "why are you playing Axs UTG?" comments. Those hands are easily playable in almost all Las Vegas middle limit games.

In fact, one of my game selection rules has evolved into: If you can't play 22 or Axs UTG in this game, then you shouldn't be playing in this game.

You guys are way too tight if you're folding these hands.

[Vehn]

I can't remember the last time I limped UTG with ace rag suited in any game.

[Vehn]

You're nuts [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] Games just aren't that great anywhere. While I didn't play a ton when I was in LV in May, I never felt it was a good enough game to limp in UTG with those hands. In particular the $20 at the Mirage was most certainly not a good enough game for that, BUT all games were profitable for skilled players. Don't limp up front with cheese. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[jkinetic]

"In fact, one of my game selection rules has evolved into: If you can't play 22 or Axs UTG in this game, then you shouldn't be playing in this game."

I agree with this statement, just as I agree with a statement that my friend makes all the time, that if you are not taking bad beats in a game then you are in the wrong game, which I think he got from Ted Forrest.

But my point was this, can you get away from your hand if an ace flops, because that is where the value of your hand will go up if you can.

As far as the game selecion goes, in LV the game selection is not as great as say in LA, where at any given time on any given day there is a good enough game in LA to limp in with those hands.

Now on a weekend game in LV I can see limping in with those hands as you did, but during the weekdays probably not.

As far as being way too tight, that is relative to the game conditions. I think hand selection should never be cut and dry, it should be contingent upon the lineup of the table and position.

[ACBob]

So Dynasty, UTG you like to limp with A small suited?

Do you think most of the local $15-$30HE Bellagio players do also? Not being critical, just trying to learn. Thanks.

Bob Lewis