Borgata angle shoot? What's your line?

[asb165]

Saturday afternoon, Borgata 6/12 game, usually about 4-5 to a flop. Player in question sat down maybe 1 orbit ago, he's limped in about 60% of the hands, and doesn't conceal his hole cards particularly well, but that's not really an issue in this hand.

2 limpers to me in the CO, I limp with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. BB raises, everyone calls.

Flop 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Action: Check, bet, I raise, blinds fold, bettor calls.

Turn: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Bet, I call, bettor asks "Can I raise him?" Table kind of chuckles, and it's not entirely sure if he's serious, or doesn't know. Either way, I don't like the question.

River: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] He bets, Hero folds. He flashes the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] as he mucks.

I probably screwed this up in several spots, but I would like to think that if he's only showing me one card, that the other is the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

So, how bad did I play it?

[shant]

Raise preflop. If you're folding the river to that card for one bet, don't call the turn.

[W. Deranged]

Shant pointed to this. You have to start thinking about CONSISTENT PLAY:

If you are calling on the turn, why are you doing so?

Is it because you are hoping to improve? No, it can't be. An A may not be a good out against a 5, and there are only two 8s left in the deck.

Is it because you think you have the best hand/think villain is bluffing?

If so, then why are you folding the damn river?


Every street is not discrete; the turn and the river are related.

A very, very good general poker rule (as good as general poker rules get) is:

If you call the turn in a heads-up pot without sufficient odds of your hand improving, you damn well better call one bet on the river (unless the river is very scary).

[peterchi]

shant and W. are right on. You'll learn a lot from them; I certainly have.

Since your concern seemed to be with the fact that the bettor asked if he could raise after you called, I just wanted to address that. I take just about 0% of what anyone says at the table into account when determining my actions in limit hold'em. Unless it's completely clear to me that it's unintentional (i.e. perhaps some grumbling when the flop comes), it generally isn't worth it to try and take it as a tell. I'm not folding my tptk to one bet even if someone verbally declares that they have trips. Think about it this way: he only needs to be lying just over 1 out of 9 times for this to be a profitable call.

[cdxx]

[ QUOTE ]
If you call the turn in a heads-up pot without sufficient odds of your hand improving, you damn well better call one bet on the river (unless the river is very scary).

[/ QUOTE ]

very good advice. i feel that i do that all too often (call the turn, fold the river, without sufficient odds, though most likely i am on a busted draw). it seems that the only card you'd actually river call is an ace (since you put him on a weak 5), and the only card you'd raise is an 8. i'd most likely put him on something weaker and call-down from the turn.

[spoohunter]

I would raise the turn, although I sometimes do get my head chopped off with a three bet here. Against this type of player I'm paying off two.

He probably picked up a flush draw to go with his pair on the turn, or has something like 86 or 76. He could also have 87, which beats you, but doesn't three bet (most of the time).

Does anyone else raise this preflop? If the limpers I weak, I love to raise with medium suited aces.

[W. Deranged]

I don't like a raise here because I feel like I have to fold to a three-bet and given the shenanigans going on I really want to see a showdown.

[peterchi]

[ QUOTE ]

Does anyone else raise this preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

i do

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Does anyone else raise this preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

i do

[/ QUOTE ]

Aye aye, cap'n.