Questions

[Spaderess]

What made me lay awake in the night and think about this hand is the turn play, but since this got to be a little longer than I though, I've broken it down.

Even though I've had a lot of sucess playing this game I am still a beginner and I realize every day how much more there is for me to learn.

One of the concepts I've learned about since coming here is WA/WB. I've serached the archives and read dozens of threads where this concept is discussed and I think I have a very good understanding of WA/WB from a theoretical perspective, I have a problem with it from a practical perspective. Usually when a hand is concidered here to be WA/WB I tend to overvalue the possibility of WA and undervalue the possibility of being WB.

WA/WB is usually being descibed as having raised with Ax and being 3-bet by a decent player and catch an Ace on the flop. The recommended course of action for a Hero oop is usually c/c, c/c, bet/fold.

Does this apply to the following hand?

I have never played with MP2 before but his alias is identical to the 2+2 username of a respected SS poster so I assumed he is a good player.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero??

[MadMat]

Well if your read is right, and this is a 2+2er the only 3-betting hands you are beating are KK and JJ, you are way behind AA QQ TT and AK(s)

check / fold if you are sure on your read, check/call down if not so sure I'd say

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
check / fold if you are sure on your read

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

AA (1)
KK (6)
QQ (3)
JJ (6)
TT (3)
AK (8)

Behind: 1(AA) + 3(TT) + 8(AK) = 12
Ahead: 6(KK) + 3(QQ) + 6(JJ) = 15

[Sightless]

[ QUOTE ]
Well if your read is right, and this is a 2+2er the only 3-betting hands you are beating are KK and JJ, you are way behind AA QQ TT and AK(s)

check / fold if you are sure on your read, check/call down if not so sure I'd say

[/ QUOTE ]

Question, why are you way behind qq?

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
WA/WB is usually being descibed as having raised with Ax and being 3-bet by a decent player and catch an Ace on the flop. The recommended course of action for a Hero oop is usually c/c, c/c, bet/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

The definition I prefer is: WA/WB applies to any hand where whichever hand is behind only has about 3 outs to win. Your described hand is a pretty good example of this, depending on the range of x.

By the way, it should be noted that the recommended line for WA/WB OOP is c/c, c/c, bet...then decide what to do. Don't auto-fold just because you're raised on the river.

The hand you posted is NOT an example of WA/WB, I don't think, as I don't see you being WB, here. The only 3-bet hands you're behind are AA and AK. (Maybe TT, depending on what he thinks of you.)

So, I bet. If raised, I'd 3-bet and take it from there.

[MadMat]

because I'm posting while playing two 6-max tables and misread it - ignore me please!

Mat

[Dave G.]

This isn't WA/WB. You are likely to have the best hand at this point. You should play this strongly. You have top pair second kicker, so push it and see what kind of resistance you get. If you get strong resistance call it down.

An example of WA/WB would be something like this...

You open-limp 88 from EP. It's folded to MP2 who raises, and everyone else folds. You call and the two of you see the flop.

K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

You might have the best hand here, but MP2 could have a king. If he has a king you're drawing to 2.5 outs, but he could be holding a lot more than just a king.

So from here you check/call, check/call and bet the river. He more than likely isn't going to raise the river without a pretty decent hand, since your bet came out of nowhere. He can't be sure that you didn't hit something obscure so he'll probably just call, unless he has at least 2 pair. This stops him from getting a free showdown with ace high and gains you value too.

That's the idea behind it. It's more for marginal holdings like this. AQ with a paired ace is not a marginal holding, it's a pretty damned good one.

[GTSamIAm]

Hero bets or check/raises. If he's good he's going to raise you with 99-KK you beat. So you might bet/call, check/call, bet/fold or check/call. This gets the most amount of money in when you're ahead and keeps him from folding. I think the better player he is, the more ways you can reasonably play the hand. It depends on your reads, mostly.

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't WA/WB. You are likely to have the best hand at this point. You should play this strongly. You have top pair second kicker, so push it and see what kind of resistance you get. If you get strong resistance call it down.

An example of WA/WB would be something like this...

You open-limp 88 from EP. It's folded to MP2 who raises, and everyone else folds. You call and the two of you see the flop.

K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

You might have the best hand here, but MP2 could have a king. If he has a king you're drawing to 2.5 outs, but he could be holding a lot more than just a king.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is not WA/WB. We're ahead very often, but, when we are, villain is likely to have at least 6 outs on us on every street (2 overs).

FWIW, I rarely limp 88, and certainly not open-limp in MP.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't WA/WB. You are likely to have the best hand at this point. You should play this strongly. You have top pair second kicker, so push it and see what kind of resistance you get. If you get strong resistance call it down.

An example of WA/WB would be something like this...

You open-limp 88 from EP. It's folded to MP2 who raises, and everyone else folds. You call and the two of you see the flop.

K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

You might have the best hand here, but MP2 could have a king. If he has a king you're drawing to 2.5 outs, but he could be holding a lot more than just a king.

So from here you check/call, check/call and bet the river. He more than likely isn't going to raise the river without a pretty decent hand, since your bet came out of nowhere. He can't be sure that you didn't hit something obscure so he'll probably just call, unless he has at least 2 pair. This stops him from getting a free showdown with ace high and gains you value too.

That's the idea behind it. It's more for marginal holdings like this. AQ with a paired ace is not a marginal holding, it's a pretty damned good one.

[/ QUOTE ]

um misguided at best here Dave

your 88 hand is def. not a WA/WB hand because unless he has something like A6 he always has 6outs, or has you drawing to 2outs so its sA/WB

WA/WB applies to situations where you have 0-3outs if behind, or your opponent has 0-3outs if you are ahead, and both are roughly equally likely, and the pot is HU, if the pot is multihanded, the instances where you are WA go down as its more likely for 6 or more outs to be out there

you also can't rank your hand in a vacuum, just because you have TPGK doesn't mean its a very big hand, if villian would say only 3bet with AA, KK, and AK its a fairly marginal hand, though I think villians range is broader which helps