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#21
08-04-2005, 12:17 PM
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Re: Raising from the blinds--why do the experts disagree?
[ QUOTE ]
I have a very large database, and I check/fold a lot of hands after raising multiple limpers out of the big blind with AKo, but I'm showing a very healthy profit. I'm making more than I would be making by just checking the option. I think that a lot of lost money from raising AKo out of the BB is the result of poor post-flop play. [/ QUOTE ] I agree but why wouldn't you extend this a bit further down the hand scale - AQo/AJo/KQo? Doesn't it play the same in this scenario as AKo? Assuming no limpers hit two pair or better on the flop,you still will have the best kicker 95-99% of the time if you flop top pair. 
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#22
08-04-2005, 01:35 PM
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Re: Raising from the blinds--why do the experts disagree?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I have a very large database, and I check/fold a lot of hands after raising multiple limpers out of the big blind with AKo, but I'm showing a very healthy profit. I'm making more than I would be making by just checking the option. I think that a lot of lost money from raising AKo out of the BB is the result of poor post-flop play. [/ QUOTE ] I agree but why wouldn't you extend this a bit further down the hand scale - AQo/AJo/KQo? Doesn't it play the same in this scenario as AKo? Assuming no limpers hit two pair or better on the flop,you still will have the best kicker 95-99% of the time if you flop top pair. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think you can keep extending it downwards. Let's say I have A9o and someone looks at everyone else's hand and lets me know that no one has AK-AT. I would not raise. The difference between AK and AQ-AT, is that you always make top pair with AK whereas with AQ you can make middle pair and with AJ-AT, it's possible that you can end up with bottom pair. As for KQo, I'd be hard-pressed to raise it. It's true that against hands like Q4, I'd got equity, but against A-rag and pockets, I don't. And there are plenty of players who will play close to any ace/pocket.
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#24
08-04-2005, 01:55 PM
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Re: Raising from the blinds--why do the experts disagree?
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you can keep extending it downwards. Let's say I have A9o and someone looks at everyone else's hand and lets me know that no one has AK-AT. I would not raise. The difference between AK and AQ-AT, is that you always make top pair with AK whereas with AQ you can make middle pair and with AJ-AT, it's possible that you can end up with bottom pair. [/ QUOTE ] Well right, but I meant exactly AQo/AJo/KQo. A9o is not a good raise for the reason you mentioned. Overcards will come too often that it doesn't matter that you have an ace kicker with your nine. AQo -- it doesn't matter a great deal that you are going to get K high flops because you are going to fold. They are just as bad as 9-8-7 flops, meaning you aren't making a play for them post-flop. You are concerned with making the most money on A high and Q high flops. Just like AK you have the best kicker or at least almost always. The difference as you mentioned with AQ is K-Q-x flops and also AK has better nut straight potential (I think) and a higher second card for the flush. Not inconsequential, but not enough to make it -EV to raise preflop with AQ also imho. KQo ditto but slightly less so because you don't hold a possible Ace high flush draw. Same thing with KQo regarding Ace high flops - you're done with the hand if an Ace hits. AJo - I don't know about because of the frequency of K and Q high flops. I don't know maybe I'm off my rocker here.
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#26
08-04-2005, 02:31 PM
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Re: Raising from the blinds--why do the experts disagree?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I don't think you can keep extending it downwards. Let's say I have A9o and someone looks at everyone else's hand and lets me know that no one has AK-AT. I would not raise. The difference between AK and AQ-AT, is that you always make top pair with AK whereas with AQ you can make middle pair and with AJ-AT, it's possible that you can end up with bottom pair. [/ QUOTE ] Well right, but I meant exactly AQo/AJo/KQo. A9o is not a good raise for the reason you mentioned. Overcards will come too often that it doesn't matter that you have an ace kicker with your nine. AQo -- it doesn't matter a great deal that you are going to get K high flops because you are going to fold. They are just as bad as 9-8-7 flops, meaning you aren't making a play for them post-flop. You are concerned with making the most money on A high and Q high flops. Just like AK you have the best kicker or at least almost always. The difference as you mentioned with AQ is K-Q-x flops and also AK has better nut straight potential (I think) and a higher second card for the flush. Not inconsequential, but not enough to make it -EV to raise preflop with AQ also imho. KQo ditto but slightly less so because you don't hold a possible Ace high flush draw. Same thing with KQo regarding Ace high flops - you're done with the hand if an Ace hits. AJo - I don't know about because of the frequency of K and Q high flops. I don't know maybe I'm off my rocker here. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, I understand that A9o is no good for raising in that situation. I just picked it as an extreme example. My point was that you can't keeping using the logic: Oh, AKo is good, so AQo must be good as well. And since AQo is good, so is AJo.. ATo.. etc. If you're willing to raise KQo, are you going to do the same with KJo? Somewhere, you have to draw a line where the hand is just not worth raising. I'm not saying AQo is or isn't worth raising; I'm just pointing out that saying hand x is close to hand y is sort of faulty logic. Here's something I'd like to point out. Let's say I'm in the BB and everyone calls. In one situation, I've got AQo and in the other, I've got ATs. I'd raise the ATs and check the AQo. AQo loses equity at a much faster rate than ATs does because the ATs has the ~4-5% chance of making the nut flush. (I'm not actually sure which hand has more equity against a full field of random hands, though) I don't have pokerstove with me at the moment, but that's something I should look into. I think with the AQo, I'd prefer to keep the pot at 5 BBs and try to gain an advantage by forcing someone to make an incorrect call, rather than raising because I have a 3% equity advantage preflop. I guess it comes down to where you draw your cutoffs, and it ends up as a silly point to argue because a lot of the situations are marginal. There's also too many variables to take into account: opponents' limping standards, number of players in, what your hand is, etc. If two mediorce players limp and the SB completes, there's no way I'm not raising AQo, but in the situation I described earlier, I guess I don't see much point in raising (but I don't think it's wrong either).
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