Weak Draw in a big pot.

IIAce · #1 08-06-2005, 05:18 PM

MP3 was a huge fish. He'd play any hand preflop and call all the way to the river even if he has like 5 high. He'd also play any hand that looks good very agressively.

MP2 (me) was another fish. He called on the flop when he wasn't getting enough odds to do so (right?). After the first flop call the hand played itself.

PokerRoom 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB checks, checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets, CO calls, Button raises, BB folds, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO 3-bets, Button folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (11.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

River: (14.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Hero folds, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 16.75 BB

Bradyams · #2 08-06-2005, 05:29 PM

Fold flop when it's two bets to you.

Blunderfull1 · #3 08-06-2005, 05:40 PM

I would fold the flop as well. With so many opponents and the button representing an overpair, you cant count your overcards as outs. So you are calling based on your backdoor flush and backdoor straight draws. That is 2 outs and about 7.5 to 1 on a 22 to 1 draw.

Sasnak · #4 08-06-2005, 05:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold flop when it's two bets to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe this flop, but not all flops.

~

bozlax · #5 08-06-2005, 06:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MP2 (me) was another fish. He called on the flop when he wasn't getting enough odds to do so (right?). After the first flop call the hand played itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the second part of this. As to the first part, I'm not sure. You've got two backdoor draws, one to the nuts, and overcards. Getting 8:1 on your call I think it's close...if you were closing the action I'd say call, but the flop bettor is still to act along with a couple others, so....fold. But, I repeat, I think it's close.

bozlax · #6 08-06-2005, 06:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold the flop as well. With so many opponents and the button representing an overpair, you cant count your overcards as outs. So you are calling based on your backdoor flush and backdoor straight draws. That is 2 outs and about 7.5 to 1 on a 22 to 1 draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't count them for the full 6 outs, certainly, but I can see raising, say, AKs/KQs/A8s (in one of the flopped suits) on this flop. So you give yourself 1.5 for each backdoor draw, plus maybe another 2-3 total (you could also hit two-pair to beat an overpair, remember), with the overlay from having 3 (maybe 4) opponents in the hand with you, and I think it's a lot closer than everybody's making it out to be.

baronzeus · #7 08-06-2005, 08:59 PM

I dunno guys. He is getting 8:1 here with two overs and 2 backdoor draws. It's certainly close, especially since Button could have two overs and be raising like a moron.

When CO 3bet you, THATs when you knew you made a bad call with only 2 backdoor draws. But just based on MP3s bet (probably with an 8) and Button's raise (probably with 2 overs) you are getting decent odds and it's certainly not horrible.

Watain · #8 08-06-2005, 09:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold flop when it's two bets to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you base this recommendation upon?

I personally think it is a very close EV decision. So close that i would say it a coinflip decision. But that is JUST on the basis of my fingerspitz-gefühl...

IIAce · #9 08-06-2005, 10:29 PM

You DO realize that for the second call (calling the CO's 3-bet) I was getting immediate 21.5-1 pot odds right? Even with only 2 backdoor draws, I had the pot odds alone to make that call ignoring implied odds.

DCWildcat · #10 08-06-2005, 10:38 PM

(grunch)

Ack, a flop cold-call with 2 weak overs and a backdoor draw? Your opponents may not have anything, but this is spewing against anyone, no matter how maniacal.