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#51
08-06-2005, 01:38 PM
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Re: Set of J\'s
[ QUOTE ]
First off, I pretty much ignore KK here. If he has that, oh well. If the board pairs, he stacks me. [/ QUOTE ] Agreed. Smoothcalling is not a valid defense against KK anyway. [ QUOTE ] The only two hands that I think I can stack against here and be ahead are AsAx AsKx. [/ QUOTE ] I think villain will occasionally be reraising with the naked As. Some players (usually these wouldn't be referred to as "solid" though), will occasionally take hands like QsQh too far here. [ QUOTE ] All other hands I either can't get much more out of or they have me beat. [/ QUOTE ] Due to the nature of the flop, I still hold that many opponents will call a flop raise with TPTK type hands. Many will also call a flop raise with a hand like QsQx, or even TsTx. They will tend to think that you could be semi-bluffing, or using the scary board to move them off of whatever they raised PF OOP with. [ QUOTE ] I'm unlikely to lay my hand down before the river, so if he bets pot, I know I'm likely to face a big bet on the turn and I might as well just get my money in on the flop. [/ QUOTE ] Agreed. [ QUOTE ] But when he bets $30, I realize that I can call and see the turn, and will probably have an easy bet to call on the turn as well. [/ QUOTE ] Unless one of those cards you don't want to see hits the turn. Or one of those cards he doesn't want to see. So why not raise it on the flop, when you can get him to pay with the hands I mentioned? [ QUOTE ] If he has something like red AK, I'll probably see a couple more small bets. [/ QUOTE ] Unless a scare card falls. Why not start getting his money on the flop? Why wait? [ QUOTE ] There's a good chance I'll value raise the river if he bets the turn and river smallish. If the turn or river is a spade, we've kept the pot small so I can call and beat red AK. [/ QUOTE ] I doubt he would bet with red AK if a spade falls. Earlier you said he would likely interpret a smoothcall of the $30 as a draw to spades. If no spade falls and he was betting into me, I wouldn't reopen the betting by raising the river. I think it makes the hand easier to play if you are raising him before the river instead of calling down his smallish bets on the flop and turn. [ QUOTE ] If I pop it to $150 or so here and he calls, we have a $400 pot. What if the turn is a spade now? And he leads? And he checks? [/ QUOTE ] I would advocate raising to 180 or more on the flop. In the situation you described, there would be 395 in the pot after the flop action. If a spade falls, I would only call if I was getting 4 to 1 implied odds, so he would have to be overbetting the pot for me to fold. Yes, I would fold on the river if the board did not pair and he pushed the last of his chips in (would only be in the neighborhood of $400-500 at that point). If he checks, that is a more complex situation. I probably check behind, due to the 1 in 5 chance the river will pair and give me a chance to crush him if he hit his hand (with the spade). If the board does not pair, that can be a sticky situation, but you won't be playing for your stack. If he bets huge, then fold. Calling a pot size bet is read dependent. Against a solid player I usually fold there, and that is another reason I prefer to begin the aggressive action earlier. [ QUOTE ] If the turn is a blank and he leads pot, what then? Or if he checks and checkraises you? [/ QUOTE ] Push. I am looking at it like you should raise the flop because he is likely to call with a variety of inferior hands. Why wait for the turn? If he has nothing on the flop, he is likely already shut down when you smoothcall. So you lose nothing by raising the flop (he'll fold), but make it a little harder on yourself if a spade hits the turn (he could have a hand like 9s9h). How do you play a baby flush here? The nut flush? The naked A of spade? I guess the answer to these questions could also influence whether you raise or smoothcall. I like to be aggressive in all 3 of those situations (of course I would not always raise with the As). I was wrong when I said calling the 30 was "beyond terrible", but I still think raising on the flop is the best line. I can't really see you giving anything away by raising. It does not define your hand. You are making money against the same ranges of hands he will call you with after a non-spade turn. The benefits are that you are charging his draws and overall making the hand easier for you to play. You also charge him for red AK type hands before a scare cards hits and kills your action/freezes YOU up. 
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#52
08-06-2005, 01:46 PM
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Re: Set of J\'s
[ QUOTE ]
The reason I dont like raising this is because of the bet size of 30, i dont see it as a semi-bluff because of how small it is, no1 is gonna fold for 30. [/ QUOTE ] I would fold for 30. Let's say I was set mining with red 7s. I would fold for 30. There is no turn card I want to see. Why call? Or what if I had red AQ? There are plenty of hands that will fold on this flop for $30. [ QUOTE ] IF he does have the flush, then just calling the 30, is a good option because IF the board pairs, he doesnt give you credit for a set, and you have implied odds to hit your hand and take a large chunk of money from a made flush. [/ QUOTE ] True, but that is only in the case he has a made flush. [ QUOTE ] Post-Oak, you said i would be raising with 94d here. OF COURSE I WOULD!! Its just for fold equity and the bitch that i would do that, god in heaven know i have no intention of playing that on this board.But with a set of Jacks, its a different story. [/ QUOTE ] If your opponent knows you are this type of player (LAG), then shouldn't you play your made hands fast too? You will get paid off with trips here a lot more than I would. Use your LAG image to its fullest and get paid off on made hands.
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#54
08-06-2005, 02:41 PM
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Re: Set of J\'s
[ QUOTE ]
Solid tight player raise in EP to $40. Im the only caller on the button with JJ. We both have $1000. Pot is $95 and the flop comes KJ4 all spades. He bets $30, I raise to $130, he reraises to $500. Standard push? [/ QUOTE ] Tight solid player.... Say he has either AsA(3), KsK(3), AsK (3) or AQs(1). I'm not sure about QsQ being played this way. If all the money goes in every time here, I think JJJ loses out. Feel free to correct me. I'd vote for a call (of the original 30) and playing as small a pot as possible. If I call, I'm only getting all the money in if I hit. As the situation stands, I'd probably think about it for a while and.... ...(online - see the 30 seconds ticking down to timeout, [censored] myself and push) ...(live - take my time and maybe find a fold - if I'm a completely tilt free. Actually, curiosity usually makes me call/push with sets).
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#55
08-06-2005, 03:25 PM
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Re: Set of J\'s
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] of course, hindsight is 20/20, [/ QUOTE ] You don't say. If the post was: Flop comes KJ4, all spades He bets $30, my action? Then we would not be getting this sudden nit like tendencies. TBG would reraise here with 49d. [ QUOTE ] if he has a made flush you would be pretty much screwed getting all your money in trying to get a boat. [/ QUOTE ] With two cards to come, you are 1 in 3 to fill up. You are not exactly drawing dead. [ QUOTE ] If he does have a made flush on the flop, why not call the 30 and see what the turn brings? If the turn pairs, you had a cheap draw to the nuts, [/ QUOTE ] The nuts??? These nits are suddenly quaking that they are up against KK. [ QUOTE ] and if the turn is not a spade then you may have a better idea of where you are at, depending on whether he bets or checks. [/ QUOTE ] Where you are at could be that you missed a chance to extract money from a naked As, or that you failed to build the pot for the board pairing river. [/ QUOTE ] woaaaaahhh...relax, quagmire. are you this uppity at the table? ok, so cut the line off at the 30$ flop bet. I still fear a reraise if I put more money in instead of just calling. He was UTG, I am giving him credit for a good hand, at least he has an As. Like I said before, why go crazy with a big re-raise when he could come over the top, either with a made hand or as a semi-bluff, leaving me with a tough decision of calling all my chips off in a marginal situation. No matter how you put it to me, I am not re-raising after this flop, I would rather call the 30 and see a turn. I love the turn, and I want to see it for 30 dollars here.
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#56
08-06-2005, 03:36 PM
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Re: Set of J\'s
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] of course, hindsight is 20/20, [/ QUOTE ] You don't say. If the post was: Flop comes KJ4, all spades He bets $30, my action? Then we would not be getting this sudden nit like tendencies. TBG would reraise here with 49d. [ QUOTE ] if he has a made flush you would be pretty much screwed getting all your money in trying to get a boat. [/ QUOTE ] With two cards to come, you are 1 in 3 to fill up. You are not exactly drawing dead. [ QUOTE ] If he does have a made flush on the flop, why not call the 30 and see what the turn brings? If the turn pairs, you had a cheap draw to the nuts, [/ QUOTE ] The nuts??? These nits are suddenly quaking that they are up against KK. [ QUOTE ] and if the turn is not a spade then you may have a better idea of where you are at, depending on whether he bets or checks. [/ QUOTE ] Where you are at could be that you missed a chance to extract money from a naked As, or that you failed to build the pot for the board pairing river. [/ QUOTE ] woaaaaahhh...relax, quagmire. are you this uppity at the table? ok, so cut the line off at the 30$ flop bet. I still fear a reraise if I put more money in instead of just calling. He was UTG, I am giving him credit for a good hand, at least he has an As. Like I said before, why go crazy with a big re-raise when he could come over the top, either with a made hand or as a semi-bluff, leaving me with a tough decision of calling all my chips off in a marginal situation. No matter how you put it to me, I am not re-raising after this flop, I would rather call the 30 and see a turn. I love the turn, and I want to see it for 30 dollars here. [/ QUOTE ] I agree that alot of people are being results oriented here because they saw me raise ans get reraised. If I had posted this hand and said that I flat called the $30...and then the turn was a 4th spade (which it was), I would get blasted from all directionns for letting him hit fis flush for next to nothing. Everyone wouldve said "you have to raise that flop, you weak tight moron". In this case it didnt matter what I did, because he had KK and I wasnt folding, especially if the board paired, but most times I think he has the As here along with a K, Q or another A.
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#58
08-06-2005, 04:08 PM
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Re: Set of J\'s
[ QUOTE ]
I raised to $130, he reaised to $500, I pushed and he had KK. I really think this guy wouldve reraised with AK or AA if he had the As. [/ QUOTE ] yes but don't you think he would have led pot so his 3 bet could be a reasonable all-in with a big draw like that?
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#59
08-06-2005, 04:14 PM
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Re: Set of J\'s
in my original reply, people said i was being results oriented. i said i liked the flop raise.
however given the flop raise, it enabled you to get off cheap as hell. you only have 130 in, you're not getting odds to push if he has a flush and KK you're royally screwed. he wore a neon sign that says "i have a monster, not a draw" and it was flashing. a draw would have not left himself 500 on a blank turn out of position, even donkeys know they want to be all in. still you chose to ignore the neon sign because harrington says you are supposed to go broke. i still hodl to my 10 AsA 30 flush and 60 KK breakdown i gave but even switching the second two since most of you seemed to think it was AsQs (tight ep raiser? hm) doesn't matter, still aren't getting odds. i understand it is depressing to fold a set when you have been mining for sets. kind of like being a gold miner and finding out your "gold" is really, well, [censored]. but life sucks and sometimes you have to fold. i don't mean to seem high and mighty because i was right but SERIOUSLY you are allowed to lay down a set. that's all.
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