KTs - How to play the Flop - Page 2

sccrneo · #11 08-04-2005, 03:37 PM

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Raising protects your hand if you are ahead

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I'm not sure this advice applies here. You have 2 people ahead of you that have already put in 1 SB on this flop. You can't protect your hand from them. Furthermore, there is no reason to believe you are ahead at this point, and you probably won't get a better hand to fold.

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There are three people yet to act after you raise, facing all three of them with having to call 2 cold. I think this does a very good job of protecting a hand. Also, you have position on the bettor and can possibly by the button with a raise. Lastly, without any reads, you dont have to assume the bettor has top pair. If he has anything less than top pair, you are most likely way ahead.

POKhER · #12 08-04-2005, 03:40 PM

Nah i just never call backdoors "Outs".

They come in RARELY to say the least, so i assume here we have 5 outs.

and i fold it, and move on - Specially as no PFR.

MadMat · #13 08-04-2005, 03:52 PM

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Raising protects your hand if you are ahead

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I'm not sure this advice applies here. You have 2 people ahead of you that have already put in 1 SB on this flop. You can't protect your hand from them. Furthermore, there is no reason to believe you are ahead at this point, and you probably won't get a better hand to fold.

Thoughts?

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We've got 3 people to act after us, if I'm staying in with middlepair I want to fold out as many overcards as possible, making those 3 face two bets cold on the flop is the only way I can see to do this!
Is this not raising to protect your hand ?

Mat

crownjules · #14 08-04-2005, 03:59 PM

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm getting bet into by an unknown micro player with an overcard to my pair. With no reads, I'm going to categorize him as the usual microplayer. That means that he doesn't beat draws and he doesn't bet with low or mid pair. Hence my reasoning that I'm not raising unless I know UTG will bet with less then top pair.

To protect a hand, you need to be reasonably sure you have the best hand in the first place to protect. In this position, with UTG betting and one caller, that's not an assumption I am going to make without reads. You have the odds to call and draw to your 6-7 outs, but a raise here is spewing and you'd just force UTG with his Jx to call down.

MadMat · #15 08-04-2005, 04:03 PM

Hmm maybe I've found a leak here then, I raise the flop a lot when I have middle pair and an overcard!

Mat

DeathDonkey · #16 08-04-2005, 04:05 PM

I raise it too, we also have a backdoor flush draw.

-DeathDonkey

crownjules · #17 08-04-2005, 04:07 PM

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I raise it too, we also have a backdoor flush draw.

-DeathDonkey

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How does that change anything? We have 6-7 outs total, including both backdoor draws.

car ramrod · #18 08-04-2005, 04:08 PM

I would raise the flop after it came to me the first time.

MadMat · #19 08-04-2005, 04:11 PM

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How does that change anything? We have 6-7 outs total, including both backdoor draws.

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You are assuming we are behind and drawing, against an unknown at .5/1 can you be that sure that UTGs bet means he is holding top pair? with a read or PT info on him as a rock or mouse then maybe, but with a complete unknown I raise him and see where it goes from there

Mat

Saint_D · #20 08-04-2005, 05:13 PM

pre-flop: I really want to raise pre-flop. Is that a mistake? If so, can you explain why?

flop: Had you raised the flop, this would be easier to play. You would be more sure the bet meant the bettor had top pair. Since you didn't, you have to protect your hand or get out. AQo will probably fold this flop anway, but facing them with 2 cold will make it a sure bet. It might also get rid of the Axo crowd who love to see flops with any ace.

Getting rid of one player with AQ will increase your chances of winning this hand by 10%.

If you have 6 outs (2 tens, 3 kings and a backdoor flush) You are 6.7:1 to improve on the turn. There are 6 bets in the pot at this point already. So if you think your hand might be the best one already, you should bet. If you think are probably behind, but not more than 70% sure, you should call. If there is a 70% chance the person betting into you has made a pair of jacks or better, fold.

Without a read I would be inclined to peel one and fold IU on the turn. Folding is probably smarter.

turn: Not the worst card ever. A heart would have been better. You are 8.2:1 (since you dropped from 6 outs to 5) to improve on the river. There are 12 bets in the pot by my count. Giving you 6:1 pot odds. Easy fold.

-D

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(paraphrase) I never call based on backdoor outs.

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If you mean, you never add backdoor outs to the clearer outs you have when you make an odds calculation, as I believe you do, you are leaving money on the table. Backdoor outs add about 1 out to your total. This already adjusts for the fact that they "almost never come in."

It would be just like saying "I never count the J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in my outs since it almost never comes in." If the J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is an out for you, you count it. If a backdoor flush is an out for you, it's just as likely to come as the J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. (+/- a few percent, but close enough).