2 similar hands, HU on rag flops

barongreenback · #1 08-02-2005, 11:07 AM

I know that this sort of situation is often read dependent but there must be general thoughts. I haven't played enough to know how often weakness is attacked at this game.

Villains in both hands were loose preflop but seemed experienced at the game (not sure how I would know [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] ). Doubts on all streets.

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $0.50 BB (6 handed) converter

SB ($10.10)
BB ($20)
UTG ($145.10)
MP ($85.95)
CO ($45.35)
Hero ($47.40)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises to $1.5, 1 fold, Hero raises to $5.25, 2 folds, MP calls $3.75.

Villain was quite aggressive preflop and seemed to up the pace shorthanded when the game went short. Do I need to reraise since I have the button anyway. If I have AA here then I give away my hand, if not I risk a reraise if he has AA. Is this play common?

Flop: ($11.25) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $10.7, MP calls $10.70.

Turn: ($32.65) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks.

River: ($32.65) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP bets $13.5, Hero folds.

A weak bet from him but I'm more worried by his flop call on a drawless board.

Final Pot: $46.15

Paradise Poker Pot-Limit Omaha High, $0.25 BB (8 handed) converter

Button ($85.00)
SB ($48.75)
BB ($214.25)
UTG ($30.00)
UTG+1 ($20.25)
MP1 ($28.50)
Hero ($85.00
CO ($11.75)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
3 folds, Hero raises to $1.75, 3 folds, BB calls $1.25.

Flop: ($3.75) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3.75, BB calls $3.75.

Turn: ($11.25) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($11.25) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $11.25, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $22.50

I had difficulty reading their hands with those flop check calls. Anyone got any ideas.

Thanks
James

MarkD · #2 08-02-2005, 01:18 PM

I'm not a PLO player, yet, but want to put my thoughts down on this.

On hand 1 I don't like the reraise pre-flop. I haven't played a ton of omaha yet, but I just don't really see the point of this raise with your hand. I would see the flop first.

Given your pre-flop raise I like your follow up flop bet. I think, that if you fired a second barrel on the turn you would have taken the pot down right down as your opponent probably has an overpair to the flop but wouldn't want to follow through on the turn after you fired out a $20-$30 bet. If you are called on the turn you have a lot of ways of improving. This could be the limit holdem player in my trying to get out though as this bet is certainly agressive but I really feel like it would work in the situation you described.

Hand 2 - I like this one as played personally. You made a valid attempt at the pot and on the turn you now have a crappy hand against an opponent who seems interested in continuing with his hand. I don't think putting more money into this pot is worth it.

n1bd · #3 08-02-2005, 02:20 PM

Hand #1, I reraise preflop sometimes, but mostly call. But you can play it many ways as long as your preflop style is well integrated.

On the turn you should definitely go all in unless you know your opponent to be tight post-flop.*

If he flopped a set heads-up, so be it. Is he calling you preflop with 22 or 44 anyway (unless it's a two pair hand)?

If he has two pair on the turn (maybe he called on the flop with a 9 + kickers and made kings up on the turn), you have a good number of outs unless he also has spades. Two pair/set + spades is an unlikely boogeyman heads up, and he'd often bet those hands on the turn anyway.

Crucially, there is a good chance you have the best hand (it's quite possible your opponent called on the flop with something like 9 + kickers or an overpair or a small wrap or worse). There are now several draws you want to charge, obviously flush draws (which may call incorrectly if they share some of your straight draws) and small straight draws, but also weaker draws that won't give you more action without improvement anyway, like A987.

Hand #2 looks fine. I don't know what he check-called with on the flop either. Maybe 43, maybe TTT, maybe ATxx with some backdoor flush draws, maybe QQ. But your play looks fine.

Another option, since the flop brought your gap-filling T and opened up several backdoor draws for you, would be to check the flop through and see if the turn brings a 789JQ and/or spade before you start moving chips.

Edit: * By "tight post-flop," I guess I really mean he won't call on the flop with less than ~ a set.

adam74 · #4 08-02-2005, 08:24 PM

I think both folds on the river are correct. It's hard to see you winning either hand at a showdown, so your only options are either to fold or to raise, if you think your opponents are taking advantage of the weakness you showed on the turn. That's possible, but in these instances at these stakes I don't think putting that raise in to find out either way is worth the risk.

Hand 1...I'm generally just calling pre-flop. [If you had called, I imagine that three of you would have seen the flop, and MP would have taken it down with a bet on the flop.] I'm not sure about betting the flop...you may get MP to fold, but it seems risky when you have no sort of hand to build on. And if he assumes you have AAxx, you're giving him the opportunity to come back over the top of you whether he connected with the flop or not. I'd be tempted to accept that I'd totally missed the flop and cut my losses. On the turn...I can see the merit of what n1bd suggested, but I don't think I want to be putting another $30 into the pot in such an uncertain situation. I think a check is better, and hope a non-spade straightening card turns up on the river. I know that by playing this passively I risk being bluffed out of the hand, and that playing it aggressively could have got MP to fold, but with a hand as weak as this I don't see a need to be gambling so much...I think you can find better spots for your money.

Hand 2...again, I'd just limp in pre-flop. I guess I might raise occasionally with a hand like this, but the vast majority of the time I'd just call. I think you're in a stronger position to bet the flop this time. You have an overpair and both flush and straight backdoor draws. And the pot's smaller than it was in Hand 1. A bet on the flop - assuming BB just calls - might well let you look at the river for free, which would be nice if the turn is favourable. I play the rest of the hand like you did. I think he called you with 34xx - I don't think he's betting anything other than a straight on the river.

barongreenback · #5 08-03-2005, 03:05 PM

Thanks everyone for the detailed responses.

Hand 1.
I was uncomfortable about how big the pot had got by the turn and this stopped me from thinking clearly. Because I had nothing on the flop I failed to see just how much the K helped me. I shouldn't have reraised preflop because of this.

Likely he had 1 pair of some sort on the flop and I thought he would usually check the river with such a hand to show it down but maybe not. I was getting good odds at the river and had invited a bluff so maybe a call was good.

Throughout this hand I was thinking maybe he has AA but would he have just called my RR preflop? Would he fold to a turn push? Would he bet the river?

I'm still not sure on the turn.

James

Lafortezza · #6 08-03-2005, 04:17 PM

I think the raising/reraising preflop is fine both times, you shouldn't do it all the time with KQJT type hands as you will inevitably get re-reraised by AAxx, similarly make sure you raise with other types of hands from time to time.

The thing about Omaha is that agression is vital, the amount of pots you buy just by potting it at every stage when you don't have a hand can easily outweigh the times you get called and lose.
In these 2 hands you posted I would definitely pull the trigger on the turn each time, and possibly on the river depending on remaining stacks.

To the villain it probably looked like you were auto-betting the flop, when you check the turn each time it shows a huge amount of weakness and allows Villain to either bluff the river or bet a marginal hand knowing he might have you beat or you might fold.