NLHE Tournament hand.....Played right???

[Godfather]

This is my first post here and I think it is great to be able to exchange ideas as I am always learning something new. This hand came up last night in the $200 NLHE Pokerstars tourney. I have $6000 in chips ...blinds are $100-200. I have As,Js on the button. MP raises to $400. All fold to me. Normally I would muck AJ on the button even suited to a raise as I could easily end up being dominated. However his raise of 2x the BB was confusing. Usual raises with AA,KK AK, have been 3-5x the BB. His 2x BB raise looked like a teaser raise with one of the following hands, TT,JJ,QQ, or AQ. So I call the bet and figure I should be able to easily get away from this hand on the flop.The two blinds fold. Also with such a large field I like to play a little fast to accumulate chips to make the final 63. This looked like an opportunity to do just that. Comments? The flop is 6s,7s,Ad. HE immediately bets $600. Now I am leaning to AQ or QQ for his hand. Why another teaser bet of $600? Why not a pot sized bet if he has AK? BEfore I proceed a question here....I believe it is wrong to call a pot sized bet when you are on a flush draw as the pot is laying you 2-1 on a 4-1 prop> Correct? Does this also apply when you have top pair with nut flush draw?? Sorry, I'm still learning the numbers. Anyway....His bet puts the pot at $1700.... I feel that calling is a mistake...I raise to $1200 figuring I can get him to muck QQ and even AQ. IF he reraises here I can muck and play on with $4400 in chips. Good move? Well he reraises another $1200....so I muck and he flashes AK which I did not expect....again going back to his preflop raise of only $400. I would appreciate your comments here...what you might have done different. Thanks.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

On the flop you can probably count the 3 remaining Js as outs as well, so even though calling is slightly -EV (you're a 2.92-1 dog, you're getting 2.85-1 from the pot), it's not a huge mistake.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

When I flop top pair and the nut flush draw, I'm typically ready to get all the money in the middle. You're either well ahead, or not far behind. Against the hand he had, you've got 12 outs twice, making you almost even money to win.

Here's how I probably play it. Once he bets 600, there is 1700 in the pot. If you raise the pot, you will be making it 2900, which is exactly half of your remaining 5800, so instead of doing that, go all-in.

He will probably call with AK here, but he might fold it. If he has AQ, there is a pretty good chance he mucks, which is huge for you. The only real downside here is if he has AA or another set, or if he folds a hand like QQ with which he would've continued betting.

Just make sure that if you play big drawing hands like this in this manner, that you also play big made hands fast as well. Nothing better than learning that an opponent likes to always slowplay his monsters, but only overbets when he's bluffing or semi-bluffing.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[John_Manley]

I think your play was correct. Raising him on the flop probably saved you money. He had a great hand and limped in. He probably wanted to get more than just one caller. The other day on pokerstar I had AA in early position and only bet 200. To my satisfaction at the time I had two callers. One with AQ and the other with 88. The 88 eventually raised to all-in and the AQ followed. Pot size was approximately 12,000. I was a happy camper until the third 8 dropped. My limping did me no good and was beat. When I think back on that decision I think I made the right decision. If I win though I have a great chance of making the final table. If I lose, well then I go play a ring game and make some money. I think you sniffed him out well by making the reraise. I doubt if he had a lower kicker than yours that he would be so bold to reraise. I know I rambled here but hopefully you got some insight into how some people play.

[WhatsEmo]

You wrote: "His 2x BB raise looked like a teaser raise with one of the following hands, TT,JJ,QQ, or AQ."

You are an underdog against each of these hands. If these are the hands you think your opponent has, you should muck preflop.

[fnurt]

I agree 100% with that comment, and let me just add the following: If you mucked to a flop bet after flopping top pair AND the nut flush draw, that should demonstrate that your preflop call was totally incorrect. What flop were you hoping for to continue playing? 2 pair or better? Your odds of hitting such a flop are way too long to call a raise before the flop.

Before you call this type of preflop raise in the future, ask yourself, what flop will you feel confident betting on? If you wouldn't feel comfortable pairing either of your cards, and you wouldn't feel comfortable with the nut flush draw, the time to muck is before the flop.

[cferejohn]

In my experience, a minimum raise from someone who does not usually raise the minimum means AA or KK much more often than it means QQ or AQ.

If it was done by someone with a reasonably deep stack (as in this case) I will call to try and outflop them. However, if I don't flop something better than top pair or a big draw (or both, as you did) I'm done with the hand. I probably make a raise on the flop with top pair/big draw rather than on the turn, but then maybe I'm too aggressive with draws.

[Gus]

I'm far from being a poker expert, but I thought I would throw my cents in there... please fire at will. here is how I would play it:

I would probably play it the way you did if my AJ wasn't suited, or if I did not have the flush draw, thus giving a chance to AQ, KK, QQ to fold. If reraised fold seems the only viable option. I guess the next question is should you be there with AJo in the first place... probably not.

With the flush draw, I'll probably raise all-in straith away on the flop. Other solution would be just call, if you think you can manage to get the guy all-in if you hit your flush on the turn, or if the guy has an history of checking the turn when called on the flop (rather unlikely with TPTK tho).

The last thing would be that odd wise, not calling the last 1200 seems wrong... at that point there is 4,100 in the pot, and it costs 1,200 to call... you've got 12 out for 47 unseen cards. So if you can extract another 600 in case you hit your flush on the turn, then calling the last raise should be ok

[scottyb]

These are my thoughts. I am curious to here where I am going wrong on this play. I try and step back and also look at what the other player thinks I have. When you made a flat call preflop, what was he thinking you had? I dont think it is crazy for him to think YOU had the AJ, AQ or even a A,10 on the button for a small raise. When the flop comes and you raise, I believe HIS thinking is you have one of the above hands and he has you. Which in fact he does. With all thats said, I think you should have called and taken the cheap card to hit one of your 12 outs. If it didnt hit on the turn you can easily get away from the hand. Having an idea of what he thinks you have in this situation would lead you to conclude that he would not fold and would come over the top on your raise.

[Poker Jon]

Am I the only person who thinks that you either go All-in (which the majority go for) or CALL his bet. I know this is relatively weak play, but by raising this small amount on the flop, you are in effect 'buying' yourself out of a free card - as in this case. If nothing hits on the turn then you can chuck your hand in. If a spade hits, you can slow play the flush draw or chuck your chips in on the turn.

I personally don't think that a call in this situation is a bad play - I may be wrong!!