Beating up on weak tight nits.

[thabadguy]

Yea i know what you mean, and i will call that with just about any 2 against a lotta players, but him calling that raise outta position, combined with how he plays, def means he has something. If he limp-called his hand range would be a lot larger obviously but a raise UTG and then a call is not a BS hand, even tho it is a BS amount of money compared to stacks.
Maybe i was unclear in my original post. The combination of raise-call means better than JJ(or AK), not just his call of my reraise.

[AnyutaDva]

Which card on the flop is the spade? I think it makes a big difference. Either he has his hand on the flop and he's made a decision he's going to check raise you on the turn to 'teach you a lesson.' In that case you can probably call because your bet if the flush hits on the river looks like a desperate bluff and you probably get paid. The only way he can have hit the river (given the way you have described his play) is if he has AK of spades, well this makes life harder because now you can hit your flush on the river and get broken.

[dopp16]

if he is weak tight then it is safe to assume that you may be beat or else he has the nut draw so your spades are no good. If your read is that he is looking to make a move becausew youve been pushing him around then he would reraise on the nut draw which means that he may have flopped his king and picked up spades also on the turn...just a thought

[flawless_victory]

in this hand, i would not have bet the turn unless i had a physical tell that made me think he couldnt stand the heat... given the way you played it, i would call the turn...
allin on river if you make a flush, fold if you miss... he gotta have KK/99, right?
if you moved in and he folded in the actual hand, you are my effing hero... i will fly to foxwoods tomorrow and take half youre action in this game if youll be so generous as allow me.

[THWAP!]

[/ QUOTE ]
The only set that he could have here is KK and that is unlikely because of his turn CR. I have been raising his lead a lot and he would def lead with a set on the turn so if i raise he can move in.

[/ QUOTE ]

one thing confuses me here. why can't he have KK? after all, KK is well within the hand range that you put him on? you say he'd lead out with a set on the turn. but why wouldn't it be the case that his way of getting in the money against a lag is to lead the flop, get raised, then get the checkraise in on the turn. this makes even more sense if any of the following are true: (1) he views the board as so raggedy that taking this kind of line is ok as opposed to reraising on the flop (ie, he views giving a free/cheap card on the turn as not a problem, and he thinks you're likely to bet any turn), (2) he thinks that you might pick up on a bet-and-reraise as completely a set (this especially matters if he's already done this to you or any other deepstack during the session or other sessions), (3) he might especially think bet/reraise turn after already bet/calling flop completely gives away that you have a set.

I guess my point is that, given your read, unless he's completely incapable of variation or adjusting to his read of your read of his play, KK is less out of the question than you make it seem.

[cero_z]

Hi thabadguy,

Everything you've said about this hand and your opponent sounds like just about no opponent I've played against. Your physical (and contextual) read is what matters here.

Based on your general description of the events so far, here's what I think. I think he has the nuts here. I think if he doesn't have the nuts, he has a set, AA, or AsKs (not clear if that's possible based on the board). I think he's not folding if you push.

You know if he'll pay off enough to make this worth your while if you hit the flush. You know if he can't possibly have the nut flush draw and a pair. You know if you'll go broke if a board-pairing spade falls on the river. You know if you'll have some other bluffing opportunity on the river.

Regarding your post:

[ QUOTE ]
[He's a] pretty boring set miner...He calls, which is certainly JJ or better.

[/ QUOTE ]

--How does he not call with any pocket pair then? I don't care how weak-tight he is; he must be willing to get his money in with a set against a LAG.

[ QUOTE ]
I can sense hes fixing to play back at me...he is a terribly weak tight nut peddler

[/ QUOTE ]

--Terribly weak-tight nut peddlers don't play back at people; they wait till they have the nuts (in this case, 99 will do) and play the hand a little faster than you would. How does his check-raise on the turn not reflect KK?

[ QUOTE ]
Uh move in/ call...folding is bad here i think.


[/ QUOTE ]

Move in? How is he going to fold for 10K more after finding a hand worth 8000 up to this point? If he's played AA like this so far (which is the only hand I think he can have that he'd consider folding), then I don't think he's willing to lay it down to you.

[ QUOTE ]
[His hand is] certainly JJ or better... Flop is 92K rainbow...He leads for 200. I make it 1K.

[/ QUOTE ]

--So he's 3 to 4 to have AA or top set, and you want to lay 2 to 1 to pick up the pot with no pair/no draw? I don't get it, man, but I guess you won this hand. Please post the results and more about your read, so I can understand what you were doing here.

[joel2006]

Judging from your own description of the hand, you are either a complete action freak or just plain don't like money. You have to call 4k to win 12k, if he has TPTK and no FD, your river spade is good and you have 14 outs, other wise only five outs against TPTK w/flush draw. You didn't state why you don't think folding is an option. His play looks like a set to me, at worst AK of spades. You have noted that he doesn't like to play oop, yet he just called your flop raise and then hit you with a giant turn CR.You say he is 'supposedly' a pro, like you don't believe it, you also seem to have no respect for how he plays, labeling him a 'nut-peddler' and a 'set miner' and noting that he won't raise oop and wont chase draws. While his play might seem 'boring' to you, I can almost guarantee you that he makes a lot of money. As Harrington notes in HOH, people who play tightly tend to be very consistent winners at NL, and particularly in uncapped games. Especially playing in a game where someone with an 18k stack will re-raise a known tight player $115 before the flop with 94s. I've got news for you, you arent beating up on him by stealing from him. He's letting you take those small pots because he only has to catch you once to get paid off big and it looks like this is the hand. He's pretty much got you right where he wants you. If you think he's playing back at you with a hand worse than AK of spades here, then your characterization of him as 'weak-tight' doesn't fit. In fact this hand looks like excellent TAG play to me, especially given the way you described your play that evening. I think you're drawing very thin here, if he has a set you have 7 spades (6 to 1 against), if he has AK of spades you have two nines and three fours and you're drawing thinner than Whitney Houston (Pokerstove has you as a 88.6 to 11.3 dog). Given the way you say he plays, you simply don't have the odds to call, FOLD.

[jcmoussa]

Doug, he cant let go of an overpair. Ive seen him call down potsize bets with QQ on a low board when even the dealer knew the other person had AA.

[thabadguy]

Umm Cero, you said No pair no draw. I have mid pair, and have turned a backdoor fd. Like i was explaining to diablo, its not just his call of 150, but more his EP(UTG) raise of 35 which is what convinced me of JJ or better.

[aggie]

[ QUOTE ]
The guy is extremely weak tight, other fw'ers weigh in about Doug please?An EP raise and then calling a reraise from him is nothing but a Big pair(>JJ) or Ak, AQ is prolly the worst hand he could have, but is very very unlikely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doug makes a living beating up on those who don't belong in that game. He sits down with a 20k stack as a form of intimidation. Actually he usually sits down with 24k. 4k in chips to play with and a 20k cashwad that never gets put in play. Few people buy in that much and those who are also nut peddlers. I have NEVER seen doug put that money in jepardy.

thabadguy is gonna cause alot of trouble for Doug because obviously when he sits down with that kind of money he plans on gambling with it. That said, i have to agree with Diablo on this one. Doug definitely loves playing his pocket pairs and will turn over a few small sets that will suprise you (given the preflop action).

I can't see putting Doug on anything other than a set in this hand (probably KK). If he has AA or AKs he's not raising that turn. He probably believes you are wild enough to pay you off with a small set so i don't think moving allin is an option. I'd say call and hope a spade falls and be done with the hand if one doesn't. If you catch your non board pairing spade, i think you have a pretty good chance of doubling up....