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#11
07-31-2005, 07:14 AM
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Re: Would you rather raise KJo or 55 UTG in a TAG game?
I think he's saying that it's much easier to play KJ correctly postflop. You'll be able to get in more money when you're ahead because it will be much clearer when that is and it will more often be clearer when you're behind with the KJ and should get away.
I'm not sure if it's clear state in terms of E.V. but I think KJ allows you to get full value from your hand more frequently than 55 does....err...even further, I think with KJ you more frequently extract the maximum when ahead and lose the minimum when you're behind than you do with 55. WT 
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#12
07-31-2005, 07:51 AM
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Re: Would you rather raise KJo or 55 UTG in a TAG game?
[ QUOTE ]
KJo, and value raise the particularly good flops [/ QUOTE ] I think this is what I'm disagreeing with. In a game that's playing tight and aggressively, I don't see KJo being able to make too many "value raises" and be able to get in that much more when we're ahead. More specifically, how many flops that we see can we call good AND be able to extract a lot of value from? With 55, I would see winning more often like you said, but not winning a large amount. Certainly we'd be calling down more with 55, but won't we sometimes be folding incorrectly with KJo anyway? I'm not so sure KJo would come out on top, tho I'm not decided either way. Regardless, the debate is rather pointless, no?
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#13
07-31-2005, 08:55 AM
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Re: Would you rather raise KJo or 55 UTG in a TAG game?
We're assuming a game where there's been a lot of fold-through to the blinds, yes? I would want 55 for it's showdown value. Nothing more complicated than that.
An even better strategy with 55 is to simply call. The raising standards of the TAGs behind you, especially in late position, will be extremely wide. They'll have a very tough time overcoming the voice that's been engrained in their head to raise limpers with hands like KJ, Axs, yada, yada. Everything else is how well do you play post flop. I also limp my medium pairs and frequently my big pockets without planning to LRR if there's few opponents for the same reason. If you raise in early position with these hands on a TAG table where everyone is playing ABC, you'll likely be disappointed with the results. - Jim
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#16
07-31-2005, 11:51 AM
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Re: Would you rather raise KJo or 55 UTG in a TAG game?
[ QUOTE ]
kj. i don't see why would you raise 55 UTG anyway... [/ QUOTE ] In a tough game, it's a very bad idea to raise either of them. Most of the time you'll be isolated, OOP, with a dominated hand and against an aggressive player.
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#17
07-31-2005, 12:12 PM
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Re: Would you rather raise KJo or 55 UTG in a TAG game?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] kj. i don't see why would you raise 55 UTG anyway... [/ QUOTE ] Think harder about it. I did yesterday at a table with 9 other 2+2ers. [/ QUOTE ] and i don't see why you would want to play at that table either...
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#18
07-31-2005, 12:17 PM
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Re: Would you rather raise KJo or 55 UTG in a TAG game?
1. Calling with either of these hands UTG at a table of TAGs is bad. Just thought I'd get that out there.
2. I like a raise with 55 and a fold with KJ. There are two primary differences between the two hands, but one of them is a much stronger effect and ends up dictating the play: -KJ will be easier to play post-flop, in that you can find more value bet/raises and can get away from the hand more easily when you miss. 55 is often committed to a showdown. -55 is much less likely to be dominated. I think the domination issue is much more important. If you raise UTG with KJ, any hand that plays along save for the blinds is going to be better than yours, and you will be forced to play out of position. While KJ will be easier to get away from if you miss, it will be harder to get away from if you flop a dominated pair. You will spew a ton of chips if you connect with an out-kicked pair (though many of the hands that dominate you will identify themselves with a pre-flop reraise). If you look at how the pre-flop matchups are going to look here, it becomes quite clear why 55 is a BETTER raise than KJ (though it may be a fold). Against many hands pre-flop that TAGs will fold to a UTG raise, the 55 is going to be roughly a coin-flip. That means that, with the dead money from the blinds, many TAG opponents will be making bad folds on a Fundamental Theorem basis against the 55 raise. Against KJ, on the other hand, most hands will be in a more clear ahead/behind position, and are thus much more likely to respond to the pre-flop raise correctly. Hence, 55 is a better raise because it is more likely to encourage mistakes from our opponents. It's not totally clear that it is worth a play here, but I think a raise is better against a table of tags than a limp (you will not have odds to play for set value alone, clearly). I'd be raising 88 against TAGs UTG automatically here, and I think 55 and 88 will play quite similarly overall given that you are against TAGS, since TAGs aren't particularly likely to play hands that contain 6s, 7s, and 8s. -WD
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#19
07-31-2005, 12:18 PM
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Re: Would you rather raise KJo or 55 UTG in a TAG game?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] kj. i don't see why would you raise 55 UTG anyway... [/ QUOTE ] Think harder about it. I did yesterday at a table with 9 other 2+2ers. [/ QUOTE ] In this game you likely can raise any 2 UTG and scare the [censored] out of them
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#20
07-31-2005, 12:22 PM
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Re: Would you rather raise KJo or 55 UTG in a TAG game?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] kj. i don't see why would you raise 55 UTG anyway... [/ QUOTE ] Think harder about it. I did yesterday at a table with 9 other 2+2ers. [/ QUOTE ] In this game you likely can raise any 2 UTG and scare the [censored] out of them [/ QUOTE ] i agree, but it's still a big risk, and a -ev game to play in (compared to other ss games). and you don't get paid off as well if you hit a set.
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