hands #87, 93, 94, & 96

[Rev. Good Will]

HAND 87 :

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
6 folds, Hero folds
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

68,761,971 games 140.282 secs 490,169 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 31.8193 % [ 00.30 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 2: 31.8186 % [ 00.30 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 36.3621 % [ 00.35 00.01 ] { Js9h }

tiny equity edge, plus fold equity definitely

stealy steal steal?

-----------------------

I'd want to muck these two hands PF:

HAND 93 :
Preflop: Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, UTG calls.

I still don't like this hand even offered 1:9...

HAND 96 :
Preflop: Hero is CO with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG calls.

I dunno, our relative position sucks, and even if the blinds were to call, we'd be getting 1:4 here

-----------------------

HAND 94 :
Preflop: Hero is SB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
6 folds, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls.

calling down from here on in just seems... weird

I want to say take one shot on the flop, and fold to any aggression, but that seems wrong.

also, what are you guys doing here to the PF 3-bet?

any other thoughts on the three other hands?

[MrWookie47]

I agree w/ your steal and your mucks.

I don't think the call down w/ 33 is too bad. There's only one broadway card so far. Once there's the 3bet, though, at best he's a very slight favorite, and at worst he's a big dog to a higher PP. I don't cap, because the BB isn't going away. If your villain will value bet A high the whole way, the call down is fine, but if he'll give up UI, folding the turn or river is better.

[Rev. Good Will]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think the call down w/ 33 is too bad. There's only one broadway card so far. Once there's the 3bet, though, at best he's a very slight favorite, and at worst he's a big dog to a higher PP. I don't cap, because the BB isn't going away. If your villain will value bet A high the whole way, the call down is fine, but if he'll give up UI, folding the turn or river is better.

[/ QUOTE ]

ahh... the classic UI overcard play... how could I forget

[irishpint]

1. Id steal w/ J9o here if the blinds are normal (not crazy)
2. 56o to a raise in the BB is mucked so fast for me
3. i dont call 2 cold right after a raise w/ 66, so muck as well
4. well i might c/r this flop- i dont see UI overs 3 betting here. a c/r and leading the turn ought to take the pot down often enough to be profitable i think. sometimes i might bet/3bet as well. i'm not folding this hand unless an A or K falls here (or crazy aggression) since we're looking at overs much more often than we are large PP.

[adsman]

I like check-raising the turn on hand 94.

For points 1, 2, and 3: the table was playing pretty loose (as you can see from the multi-way flops frequently being seen). This hand was a bit of an anomoly since it usually didn't fold to the CO.

With loose blinds I prefer to have more of a hand to steal with in hand 87. I normally want a couple of cold-callers in front in hand 94 before cold-calling a raise with a small PP, but there was already 1 cold-caller and given the table texture I was pretty sure more would cold-call after me too.

In Hand 93 I'm almost closing the action unless UTG wants to limp-reraise, so I'm pretty sure I can see a flop. The odds are great, and this hand is much easier to play postflop than that other hand we discussed (Qxo?) from the first hand post. It'll be easy to muck if I flop nothing or bottom pair etc, and with this large multi-way pot I'm getting paid off well if I hit a big hand or big draw.

The hand with 33 was a pretty confusing one to play; I've admitted before that I'm very much still figuring out how to play these blind steal/re-steal situations. I think villain will 3-bet a wide range preflop here, including all sorts of broadway or high-card hands. Once a relatively safe board shows up, I figure I'll let him retain the lead and keep firing.

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
I like check-raising the turn on hand 94.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ajrenni]

HAND 94 :
Preflop: Hero is SB with 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
6 folds, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (6 BB) Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img](2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8 BB




Could the people who are recommending the c/r on the turn elaborate on why doing it on the turn is better than on the flop?

When I first looked at this hand my thoughts were similar to Irishpint’s. To me, the 3-bet pre-flop and flop bet do not fully persuade me that we are behind here. BB very well could have missed the flop, either with overcards or with Ax, Kx – at least often enough to justify our continuing in some way or another.

A flop c/r would indicate to BB we have a made hand and should snap off any semi-bluff/free card attempts on his part, if that is what he is up to. Even if he 3-bets, as long as we are ahead 10% of the time, we have enough overlay to call and re-evaluate on the turn. Most importantly, the check/raise on the flop gives us some fold equity on the turn – ideally we could end the hand there, maybe even getting middle pair to fold.

When I saw the comments about waiting for the turn, I started to wonder whether my reasoning was faulty. It seems like we are slowplaying and trying to keep BB around for the more expensive streets. But we may not have the best hand, so it seems like we are the ones making life too expensive for ourselves, not BB. Meanwhile, if we are ahead, we are passing up most of our fold equity on the turn and risking giving a free card.

Check/call all the way seems like it’s only a good idea if, as Mr. Wookie mentioned, BB will value bet A high (or less) all the way to the river. Otherwise, I think we are letting BB check the hands we beat (thus drawing for free on the turn), and value bet the hands that beat us. If we check-raise the flop and put him in call-down mode, we lose 3 BB when we are behind and gain 3 BB when we are ahead. If we check-raise the flop and are 3-Bet, we can safely fold to a turn bet, likewise if he does a stop and go on the turn – so our losses when he really has the goods are even less. If BB is ballsy enough to follow up a semi-bluff flop bet with a semi-bluff turn raise, after being check-raised on the flop, fine – next time, when we have a stronger hand, we will make him pay. If we check-call the whole way, we lose 2.5 BB when we are behind and win 1.5 BB when we are ahead (since he will probably check the river).

If I am wrong on any of this, please let me know.

- Andy

[McGahee]

Don't think there's a 100% right or wrong here. There's a lot of gray area to this HU stuff.

Your comments I disagree with:

"Representing a made hand by check-raising the flop" - When I get C/R'd HU on the flop, I often put my opponent on a draw and I'm usually right. If I'm villian in this hand I'm probably putting you on a gutshot+overcard on this board.

"You have more folding equity on the turn if you C/R the flop" - How is that? He's never folding to the flop C/R, so he's always seeing the turn either way. What looks scarier to you - a turn bet or a turn C/R?

"You're letting him take a free card" - Frankly that's just hogwash. Give me one example of a time where you did or ever would 3-bet PF on a resteal, bet the flop, and take a free card when you're battling for the blinds HU. If this guy's aggressive at all which he apparantly is, he's going to try to take the pot down on the turn.

Another reason I like the turn is that I can reserve the right to puss out if an Ace or something slides off. This 6 happens to be a good card for us, as we can easily be representing something like A6.

[meep_42]

J9o is a steal against anything but the loosest blinds, for me.

I'm calling the 9-1 with the connectors, but folding most flops that don't give me a big hand or draw to a big hand.

The 66 cold-call needs to be raise or fold, mostly fold unless you have a good read.

The 33 hand I think you need to check-raise the flop and lead the turn, with that being about the only money you put into this.

-d