Pocket kings can suck it

[rtrombone]

Does anybody lose less than me in these two hands?

Hollywood Park 20-40. I'd wanted to stay away from hold 'em for a while, but it was all they had. An unusually tight game, with a couple soft spots, both of whom were running good.

Hand 1: I limp UTG with KK. It's folded around to the big blind, an older asian lady pro. She's solid overall, maybe a bit overaggressive. I think she bluffs too much in multiway pots. She raises. I 3-bet. She looks at me and says, "Good hand, huh?" Flop is Qxx rainbow. She checks, I bet. Turn is another rag. She checks, I bet, she checkraises, I call. River is an ace. She bets, I call. She takes it down with QQ.

Hand 2: A little while later, I get KK UTG again. I limp. It's folded around to the asian lady in the big blind, who raises (this beginning to sound familiar?). This time I decide to get cute and call. Flop is A K T, two diamonds. Wow, I've flopped a set. This hasn't happened to me in a while. Big blind bets, I call. Turn is a blank, a black 6 or 4. She checks (damn!) and I bet. She calls. River is a non-diamond jack. She checks. I think ok, she doesn't have a Q, maybe she'll call me though. I bet, she checkraises. I make the crying call. She has QQ AGAIN and takes it down. [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored]

It seems like every time I get cute I get throttled. But if there ever was a time to smooth call with KK pre-flop, this was it, right? Same exact situation as the first hand against an aggressive opponent who's observant enough to know I have a big hand if I limp-reraise.

You know you're running bad when you would've saved upwards of a thousand dollars by not having been dealt KK at all in the past two weeks. I've run into aces at least three times. There were the two QQ disasters I've described above. The capper? I raise with KK in EP and the loose guy to my immediate left cold calls with pocket treys. The flop: 3 3 2. [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img]

[Clarkmeister]

"You know you're running bad when you would've saved upwards of a thousand dollars by not having been dealt KK at all in the past two weeks."

Maybe, but you should know you are playing bad when you limp with KK UTG twice in one session.

[rtrombone]

Look, I'm not going to try to limp-reraise in a game that's a limp-fest pre-flop. This game was tight, and full of people who would love to raise a single limper before the flop.

What, you're telling me you limit yourself to one limp-reraise attempt a session? It all depends on game conditions.

[bad beetz]

this has nothing to do with anything, but I think in the first hand the woman should bet the flop and have you raise, then check-raise the turn. That way she gets an extra small bet.

bong.

[Clarkmeister]

Personally I think that if you never limp reraised, you wouldn't be making much of a mistake. Though against regular day in day out opponents it probabaly is a necessary part of balancing. As far as limiting myself to one limp-reraise per session, I've limp reraised preflop less than a dozen times total in my life. I tend to open raise with a larger range of hands than most, and that means I have little need to get cute with my big pairs. In fact, I raise with that wide range of hands specifically so I don't have to get cute with my big pairs.

Anyways, I am of the firm opinion when you are running bad (as the tone of your post strongly suggests you are) the last thing you need to be doing is trying to play trcky. Strong straightforward play is a good remedy for those times when your judgement may not be at its peak.

As for the actual hands, on the first one I'd have considered 3-betting the turn and folding to a 4 bet, but maybe I do that too much. But I always feel that calling down just encourages them to take shots since they never get punished when they are getting cute. When they know you'll 3 bet them on the turn with one pair, their turn checkraises tend to become far more legitimate and readable. But again, maybe I overdo it sometimes.

On the 2nd hand, I'd raise the flop 100% of the time, especially if I wasn't running well. Strong, straightforward and fast. You could easily get 3 bet by an ace or 2 pair. You didn't 3 bet preflop, now is when you get a chance to cash in on that deception and yet you pass it up. Do you really think she is putting you on a set when you raise the flop? Heck, you could get 3 bet on the flop and still get to raise the turn. Besides, if she doesn't have an ace or better, do you really think you are going to get anymore action? Get the chips in the pot now and hope she's got something to battle with.

gl

[rtrombone]

I agree that limp-reraising is usually incorrect, at least in my L.A. games. A limp tends to attract other limpers. I've probably been trying it a little too much; oftentimes nobody will raise behind me. In this particular game, though, I'm 100% certain it was correct. People were good enough that they would frequently either raise or fold before the flop. You know the type of game I'm talking about. You never get to play your blind hands because the pot is always raised. Contrast this with games in which you get to play all your blind hands.

I think you're right about hand 2. I wasn't sure what the big blind had. I put her on AQ at first, but when she check-called me at the turn I thought maybe she had the case king, instead. Then when she checked to me at the river I thought maybe KJs. But if I put her on AQ at the flop, a raise was certainly in order. She would have 3-bet me and led at the turn with this holding. And if she has nothing, my smooth call will get me one extra small bet at best, since she will fold to a turn raise.

Looks like I made the same mistake she did in hand 1 (the one bad beetz pointed out). Unfortunately, my mistake may have cost me the entire pot, whereas hers cost her only one small bet.

When I'm running bad as I have been, I just try even harder to make the best EV play possible. This may or may not be the most straightforward one. I'm sure you will slowplay certain hands when the situation absolutely screams for it, no matter how bad you're running.

Thanks for the response.

[elysium]

hi rt
often, pocket KK and AA unimproved or even a set of such, will not take down the pot. but these are still the very best starting cards you can get and you must do everything to maximize your chances of winning unimproved. raise at every opportunity pre-flop and on the flop when you are shorthanded and have an over pair. no, you won't always win, but you will win often enough with these great cards to make playing them strongly correct every time.

[RydenStoompala]

I'd take the cowboys another ten times and check the math again. The first pot was not multi way so the check raise, assuming she's as good as you say, puts her on a set or two pair. I've done as bad with bullets, so take a breather and come back in praying for more kings.

[CrackerZack]

Hand 1: I limp UTG with KK.
Hand 2: A little while later, I get KK UTG again. I limp.


Raise the hand, if all you get are the blinds, start raising UTG with T9s and things like that, get caught once and see what happens.

[pilchard]

I like to use the limp reraise when there is an aggressive person or two in late position. In this case you cost yourself bets as the BB would have in all likelihood have 3 bet preflop giving you the chance to 4 bet.

Once you had limped preflop your play in hand 1 is OK. You'd have to be pretty certain of your opponent to fold the river.

Once you limp in hand 2 you miss a bet pre flop and fail to make that bet back on the flop when you have the best hand. You have to think what hands she would be raising with out of the BB preflop. If she is over aggressive it could be many hands (particularly against one limper) but amongst those hands are AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ, JJ.

That flop could have given her two pair, a set, a pair and a gutshot and with the unlikely exception of AA or QJ you are going to love being reraised on the flop.

Once she fails to check raise you on the turn you have to think about the type of hands she could have. It is unlikely she has a K. You would think that she would have led again on the turn with an A or TT. She then calls your turn bet, which in this pot would usually indicate she has some part of this board.

Thus on the river do you bet? Part of your problem here is that you know you have missed out on bets and so you are prepared to take on the risk that she does not have a Q. You then feel you have to call the river raise. Against a rational BB a Q is a real possibility given the betting sequence. An A, two pair or a set would have been led on the turn (or check raised). It's unlikely she has a K. Would she have called the turn with a mid pair? She could have JJ but the J appearing makes this less likely. When you bet the river, what worse hand do you think she has which she is going to call you with?

However, imagine if you had raised up front preflop, 4 bet preflop, bet the flop and turn, you'd have the opportunity to shut down on the river having already committed your opponent to 3.5 big bets. She may even have folded on the turn and not even put you in a position to lose the hand.