10-20 with AA

[Mikey]

Well.....

I called, and he turned over AKo.

After replaying the hand when i got home I figured there was no way he could have KK.

When i limped in and the next guy folded he raised.
The button called cold.
It came back to me and I 3-bet.

He hesitated a little and capped it.
(The reason I feel that he capped it was because he wanted to make the hand heads up between him and I.)
The button called.
I called.

The flop comes up and I bet.
He calls.

CALL? You don't call here if you have Pocket Kings, especially since the hand is 3-way with the button yet to act and with the button now getting 15 to 1 and is getting the right price to hang around and spike a set if infact he's holding a pair. You raise don't you? Don't you raise almost 100% of the time with KK.

On the Turn.

I bet again and he called.

CALL?
(How can he just call now with KK. Now is his chance to make the max on the hand if he's ahead especially if I have QQ or JJ or to find out if I really have AA.)

River is the K [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] .

I bet.
He raises.

Ok....now I have a situation here. I'm up against a good player, a regular who plays every day and he's raising my river bet. Does he have 3 Kings?
Well the play that I made by limp reraising screams that I have AA especially to an experienced player. I mean what else could he possibly put me on.

I call.

Then when I came home and replayed the hand and his mannerisms I remember that he was making slight hesitations when deciding what to do on the flop and on the turn.

Also I think what messed up my mind more than anything was the peanut gallery. "Ohh here we go, Aces vs. Kings"

When I made what I thought was a crying river call because
1) Peanut Gallery
2) The play of my hand by limp reraising shouted AA.
3) Being up against a regular who plays every day.

I thought I was donating money but after further analyzing the play especially when i came home and replayed and visualized the whole thing over again.... I should have reraised the river for the following reasons.

1) His hesitations.
2) His play on the flop.
3) His play on the turn.
4) The likely hood of him actually holding KK vs AK when the King comes on the river.

After running the mathematics of the probability of him holding KK to AK, I realized too that I had an easy reraise on the river. But I put the mathematics part of it 4th on my list. I think his play on the flop was the giveaway.

I learned something very important that night when i came home.

Don't wait to come home to replay what happened in the hand, do it when your arms are crossed and you are leaning back in your chair.


Thanks for the responses and I would appreciate your further thoughts on this.

[FishyWhale]

To put it in your words: CALL CALL CALL!!! [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[pilchard]

A few things do not make sense in regard to your posts.

1) You state in your first post that your opponent is a very good player. You need to reassess this. His play is awful. Starting hand strength is relative. Once you have limped reraised, you are right that this screams AA (KK or AK at a push until you know more about the player). Therefore his AK is junk. Capping preflop is wrong. He should fold to your flop bet when he has nothing. Once he gets to the river and hits his K he should check call on the small chance you have AK or if he's really lucky QQ. The raise achieves nothing as you are going to call (and maybe reraise).

2) You state there is no way he could have played his hand the way he did with KK on the flop and turn. Why? I played a nearly identical hand yesterday with KK (without hitting a K on the river I might add) just because my read on my opponent was such that I was fairly sure he had AA. I check called the flop, turn and river and he showed me AA. I lost 2.5 big bets from the flop on but couldn't fold an overpair to the board given the size of the pot.
Raising for information is an overrated concept. If he raised the flop, could he then fold when you three bet? I'd have played the hand the same as him with KK (without the preflop cap).

3) check raising the turn is the optimum play here for reasons posted earlier.

[Dynasty]

After replaying the hand when i got home I figured there was no way he could have KK.

That should have really been obvious at the table.

What amazes me is that pilchard, sam h, cepstrum, sleepyjoet, ML4L, 34TheTruth34, Rollaj, DrSavage, BigLick, bruce, Instinct, J V, and theFishyWhale would have played this as weak-tight as you.

Practically everybody in this thread expected your opponent to turn over KK. That's just old-fashioned, weak-tight, monsters-under-the-bed thinking. I would have 3-bet against 99% of opponents. I don't think it's that tough a decision either. These are the extra bets that the break-even or small winners miss over and over.

Sooga is showing some potential. Maybe playing in my home game helped? [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[pilchard]

I have to disagree with you here Dynasty.

In the original post, the opponent was described as a "very good player". Very good players are players who can read cards and amount to a small % of all players.

Consequently, his play is totally consistent with someone who has KK but who fears that our hero has AA and feels it impossible to let go of his hand. A very good player with AK would have:
1) realised the strength of his hand preflop in light of the limp reraise.
2) put our hero on a big pair (his only chance is the slight chance of QQ)
3) Folded before the river for fear of drawing dead
4) Not raised the river with AK given that he is not going to fold our hero and could face a reraise.

KK is the only possibility of a very good player, and those people advocating calling on the river had taken into account the player as described. You state in your post that you would have three bet against 99% of opponents. I am assuming that the 1% of opponents you would not have reraised against would include very good players who would have read your hand correctly and weighted their decisions accordingly.

However, I agree that against most opponents, I would normally three bet on the river too [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Huh]

I don't get why people say the limp-reraise screams AA, KK, or maybe AK. The vast majority of limp re-raises I see are made with suited connectors or absolute crap(just an ego re-raise). Mikey obvioulsy had a "bad vibe" going with the guy, so I wouldn't be so quick to put him on Aces, if I were sitting at the table.

-Huh

[Dynasty]

Why is it that your good player knows Mikey has AA but still clings to his KK as if his life depends on it?

[CrackerZack]

by the same standards, would it be a good player that would pay off this raise?

Personally, I think you're totally right about this and agree with your comments about most of us. I'm one of the money that when I've been the aggressor the entire time, then someone wakes up on the river, I tend to back off a bit. On the flop/turn, no, but on the river, yes. Also, FWIW, if I knew I was playing against Mikey and knew how he loves to make the "huge fold", I'd make this raise every single time, but wouldn't play off a re-raise.

[Michael Davis]

If you thought he was being truthful or had AK, you should have check called the river.

You can't fold here. If he says "aces vs kings" when he really means "aces vs queens" he just bought himself four bonus outs if you will make this laydown.

-Mike

[tiltboy]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Don't call. 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Dang, I'm horrible and this is exactly what I was thinking. The way he played the flop would indicate to me he probably had AKs and you are still way ahead on the river. I three bet it and if he shows me cowboys I just tip my hat and say "nice hand. sir".