Takin a Shot at 25/50, KK play

[fsuplayer]

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I like. Well played.

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[coltrane]

I'm gonna go against what seems to be common consensus and say that I don't really like the flop raise......I like a smooth call better.....in general, on top of making the pot bigger, I think raising puts villain in a position where he can make less of a mistake.....what was your plan if he reraised on the flop?.....what about if a heart hit the river?.......you put in ~$3500 postflop as it is, how much would it have cost you to just call him all the way down?......if you were really playing that tight, and villain is as good as you describe, I don't really see what a raise on the flop accomplishes when he's leading into you and very well knows you have a hand......sure, if he has hearts you could induce a river bluff if he misses, but his hand range is a lot wider than for you to be putting him squarely on hearts - plus, he could fire three barrels at you with hearts anyway.....

[coltrane]

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Expect to win often. If he shows you 76 them's the breaks. If he flopped a set, you couldn't have lost much less without giving up a ton of value.

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C,

I don't really see what value there is in hero raising the flop.....if you're villain and you're holding any of the following hands on the flop - set, top two, pair+flush draw, straight+flush draw, nut flush draw, straight draw, JJ - what would you rather see hero do, call or raise?.....catch my drift?....

[cero_z]

Hi Sunny,

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you put in ~$3500 postflop as it is, how much would it have cost you to just call him all the way down?......

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When I'm in this spot, I'm not just thinking about how much it will cost me if I take various lines. I assume I'm ahead nearly always, and when I'm not, I'll probably lose a nice chunk of change. But, I can't just go into defensive mode with Cowboys as soon as the flop comes down rags and my opponent bets into me. My goal is to pick a balanced strategy that wins a lot the many times I'm winning, without losing the absolute maximum the handful of times I've been outflopped.

If somebody who views me as tight leads right into me on a "harmless" flop after I raise in EP, I'm concerned, but I also know that a lot of guys are going to test me to see if I'm weak as well, and I'll just muck AK, or let him draw against my overpair on the cheap. I actually welcome this, because I feel like their view of me as tight and possibly weak forces them to pick up a big hand against me, in order to win in these spots. And, on top of all of this, the OP didn't raise in EP; he opened from the CO.

My favorite instance of this "test the tight guy" play is when these guys try to get cute when an Ace flops. If they raise me on the flop, and I pop them back big, what can they do without 2 pair or better? They "know" I'm tight, and think I'm weak, but can't be sure. It allows me to win a nice pot (where they've put in a raise) most of the time with, say, QQ, even when an Ace flops. You can't let people run you over in any NL game, whether you're taking a shot or sitting in your own personal butt-dent in your favorite seat. KK is a pretty good place to draw a line in the sand.

[cero_z]

Hi tech,

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i'm not sure tho, i'd be itching towards a call, since it'd be an oddly played AA/set.


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Odd for AA? Yes. Odd for a set? I don't know about that. I often take this exact line with a set against somebody who probably had a good hand pre-flop: Bet the flop, hoping to get raised. Then, when you do get raised, re-raise if he's bad, call and go for a check-raise if he's good (or check-call turn, lead river, depending on a few things). If the check-raise whiffs, I make a nice fat bet on the river, just as I would some portion of the time if I'd missed a draw. On the flop, Villain represents a draw, by leading, and then backing off when he gets raised. Whatever happens from there, he's pretty much forcing you to guess.

Since we're guessing, I'm calling the 2400 in Rocaix's spot; maybe that's a testament to how good a line it is, or maybe to how much of a station I am.

[1800GAMBLER]

I still don't feel great about the river call, i have to assign huge value to the call just for meta game reason here, AA KK are pretty much my TOP hands i'll ever be holding here and if i fold the best hands to this line i'm in an awful situation later, but still i just can't see a good player trying to bluff me off what he knows is AA KK QQ etc. Your thoughts?

[coltrane]

I agree with what you're saying about not getting run over, but I don't really think what I said is contrary to that.....I never said hero should fold....and I'm not even saying that there aren't times to put in 100BB's with one pair on the flop - because there are......but I'm just talking about playing the hand in such a way that gives villain a chance to make mistakes as opposed to hero.....and I don't think raising the flop is that way.....

villain leads into hero on the flop, and villain is a good player.....why raise?.....if villain was making a move, is the raise going to encourage or discourage him from continuing his bluff?.....if villain has JJ, is he gonna play on?.....if you're hero and villain reraises your flop raise, are you happy to get all-in?....and if indeed the answer to the last question is yes and the commitment decision has been made right on the flop, why check the turn?.....are you planning on calling any river bet no matter what card comes? (even a heart?).....

and I know what you mean about the "test the guy when an ace flops" thing.....I recently played a hand at that Bellagio 10/20 game where I had made a big preflop raise with black kings and the flop came A94 all diamonds....I checked, the guy put me all-in, I studied and finally called and was shown 9c8c.....if they're gonna make moves, encourage them, you know?....

another example that's more pertinent to OP's hand: I recently played a 5/5 hand where I flat called a MP's raise with QQ on the button.....the flop came JTx and MP led out - I thought he was making a move and decided to just let him hang himself....I called, the turn ragged and he potted it - I called....the river paired the T - he potted it, I called and he had AQo.....if I had raised anywhere, he would have given up his bluff but continued on with better hands.....and if he actually made a hand that beat me, I kept the pot managable so that I never felt committed and instead gave myself a chance to make a good read....

that's kind of the way I feel about OP's hand....villain is a good player, he's leading into me, there's not much in the pot, I have position on him - let him keep firing, now's not the time to raise, let me evaluate on the turn.....that's my thinking.....now on the other hand, if I had AK, I'd probably raise the flop......

[Rocaix]

I thought a raise on the flop in this situation is best, mainly because the range of hands he's betting into me is so wide that a call would make this hand much tougher to play on the later streets. Since I have no idea what cards I like to see on the turn. Not to mention I release the initiative and if I want to see showdown I'd end up likely having to call all three streets, Since villain is not the type to give up if he senses there's any possibility that he can push me off a better hand.

When he calls my raise he defines his hands to either a combo-draw, two pair, AA, QQ, or a set. This makes my turn and river decisions significantly easier than playing a guessing game by calling down.

[padirk165]

Cero, just wonderig Why you and everyone else is saying that they like the turn check? Aside from inducing a river bluff, if villian will bet a whiffed draw, I dont see why to check the turn. If you bet the turn at around 3/4 pot and get raised you are prob drawing to 2 outs or drawing dead to a 67 and can fold otherwise arent you just letting villian draw for free? Just curious as to why nobody has suggested a turn bet.

[luckOverSkill]

As to how you played, I'm not crazy about turn and
river play. Flop raise is okay by me.

He's stayed in the hand to at least the turn. So
he must have a hand. But you have a hand too. So
put in a pot sized or 3/4 pot sized bet in response
to his check on the turn. Calling a $2400 bet on
the river after a check on the turn isn't
necessarily a pleasant experience.