Handling a flopped monster - and a scary turn...

[MisterKing]

This may be painfully straightforward, but I thought I'd post it to make sure I had the fundamental concept right behind my action. The interesting parts are the flop and turn, and I'm interested in whether you all would play it any differently...

Full Tilt Poker, Limit Hold'Em $20+2 MTT, 7/24/05
Blinds 125/250, 21 players left, 68 entries and 8 spots paid, par is ~4,600

Seat 1: 7,125
Seat 2: 3,050
Seat 5: Hero, 3,055
Seat 6: 4,544
Seat 7: 1,746
Seat 8: 9,307
Seat 9: CO, 3,394
Seat 2 posts the SB, Hero posts the big blind of 250
The button is in seat #1
Dealt to Hero A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Pre-Flop
3 folds, <font color="red">CO raises</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls.

Flop 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero checks,<font color="red">CO bets</font>, hero calls trying to get another bet or two in on the turn/river.

We're holding the 3rd nuts at the moment, and there's no reason at all to worry that CO has either of the two better hands... he'd been playing reasonably tight, though he did tend to raise somewhat more liberlly in position when folded to him.

Turn 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets</font> , <font color="red">Hero raises</font>, <font color="red">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="red">Hero caps</font>, CO calls.

Here's the question: we're drawing dead if he has the Jd, and we have a one-outer if he has the 6d. We're miles ahead if he has anything else. My raise seems standard IMO, but I wonder if it would have been better to again just call and then try to get raises in on the river (if he has something like the Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] this seems better). The possibility that he has a set, however, seems to dictate to me that all the money needs to go in now.

Once I've raised and he's 3-bet, is there any reason at all not to put in that last raise on the turn? I could have just called, and called a river bet instead, leaving me a third of a big blind, but there's really no point to that.

River 6c
Hero bets 55 all-in, CO calls.

PS... the starting stacks look strange... I don't know if they're right but I know the betting pattern is right pre and post flop...

[Seadood228]

Probably doesn't mean much, but that's an awful lot of turn action with 4 diamonds on the board and the AdKd in your hand.

[37offsuit]

Since he opened preflop and then called a raise behind, what hands can you put him on? QQ seems unlikely, why would he not cap it preflop? JJ - 99 and AQ with the Qd are possibilities.

You say he's been playing reasonably tight...so does he play a set like this when the 4th diamond and 4 straight hits the turn when you've clearly represented a big diamond or perhaps the OESF draw on the flop with your check/call?

I slow way down on the turn...check/call it down for two big bets and hope that he somehow has the Q of diamonds and that the Jd doesn't fall. Given the turn action as you played it, he almost has to have the Jd or just maybe the 6d to give you that turn action.

Does he 3 bet a set on that board?
Does he 3 bet a Q high flush when 4 single diamonds has him drawing dead or to a 1 outter?

I honestly don't see what you beat here that you can get extra bets out of. You can leave yourself with some chips when you're behind and still win a decent pot when you're ahead.

[MisterKing]

I see what you're saying about the fact that I can't beat really anything that 3-bets me on the turn, but how can I not raise the turn, or not call a 3-bet when I raise? If he has a set, I'm making a huge mistake by not raising. If he made a straight with a worse diamond (e.g. he has QdJx), then I need to raise as well. Perhaps more bets needed to go in on the flop here?

[JC_Saves]

after the Turn I would go into Check/calling mode to the river and hope that my hand held up.

Very tough when 4 to a str8t flush are on the board to raise someone in that situation , unless you have holding the top end of the st8rt flush.

[blockafor]

[ QUOTE ]
I see what you're saying about the fact that I can't beat really anything that 3-bets me on the turn, but how can I not raise the turn, or not call a 3-bet when I raise? If he has a set, I'm making a huge mistake by not raising. If he made a straight with a worse diamond (e.g. he has QdJx), then I need to raise as well. Perhaps more bets needed to go in on the flop here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have the third best diamond, and you know he doesn't have the Kd, so you shouldn't be raising the turn because getting 3-bet is awful. If he has a set, you're not pushing him off of it with a turn raise and he may even check-fold the river if he doesn't fill up so calling a bet on the turn and then another on the river may gain you the same amount, but prevents you from losing more when he has the straight flush. Also, there's nothing in the villain's play that would cause me to rule out the Jd or 6d.

[mikey checks]

He could easily not put u on diamonds, especially since u bet the flop and is raising with a Q/J high flush. I doubt he has that Jd but would pay to see it and since youre short stacked I go for the full double or leave the tourney with grace

[mikey checks]

Nevermind, and I woiuld have bet the flop / raised the flop and then slow played on the turn hoping he overplays his flush. The way you played it you cant tell who's beating who

[adanthar]

This is an interesting hand but there are actually a few questionable things here.

First off, it's limit and you have 6 BB. That means you are *either* playing this hand all in on any flop or should be check/folding a lot of flops. You are also out of position and will not be able to make the guy fold if he hits so much as bottom pair. I think - although I am not a good limit tourney player so take this with a lot of salt - that, based on that, you should not be 3 betting this PF. I could be very wrong, though.

Anyway, you 3 bet and get the perfect flop. Check/calling looks weirder than betting. Just bet out, he'll put you on anything except a made flush.

Turn: To make a long story short, why are you freaking out about this and check/capping it when you are realistically beat at least 2/3 of the time? Check/call down and pray.

[nightlyraver]

This is kind of a side issue, but there is a pretty good argument for flat calling preflop and check raising any flop. I think Sklansky wrote the article, actually, and it appears in an issue of the magazine from a few months ago.