standard KQs or weak?

[@bsolute_luck]

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So, um, why'd you raise the flop?

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forgive me if i'm slow, but i still think raising this flop makes sense. you have overcards + BDFD + BDSD. a loose passive bets into you, so the chance of getting a free card UI on the turn is definitely a possibility and worth the investment.

sux you got 3-bet, but still worth it. i doubt he's on a draw being a loose passive or a weak-made pair of 7s. so seeing as the villain probably isn't on a flush draw and you've eliminated the field, i think most, if not all, of your overcard outs are good. but once he 3-bets and the 3rd Jack falls, both of our BDs are gone and it is doubful that spiking any of our overcard outs will win us the hand, that we should fold.

someone explain why raising this flop isn't worth the extra investment? reading through the Nate post, Entity you said:
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With overcards+gutshots, oc+bd draws, etc., I raise a little more often

[/ QUOTE ] this hand seems to be perfect for this attempt based on reads and position.

EDIT: nevermind. i had to just sit and think about it for a while. it is because of our position on the raiser, that we shouldn't reraise. the fact that there is no one between us, that our raise looks to be overcards pushing out other hands. so really he 3-bets sorta for information and the only way to possibly get a free card on the turn is to cap the flop and make it look like we have a higher pair, which is too expense for the hand we hold. if we held an OESD or 4-flush draw, then could we cap the flop?

[Iq75]

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EDIT: nevermind. i had to just sit and think about it for a while. it is because of our position on the raiser, that we shouldn't reraise. the fact that there is no one between us, that our raise looks to be overcards pushing out other hands. so really he 3-bets sorta for information and the only way to possibly get a free card on the turn is to cap the flop and make it look like we have a higher pair, which is too expense for the hand we hold. if we held an OESD or 4-flush draw, then could we cap the flop?

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Do you think that avarage micro-limit players can read hands that well? there were no good reads but the villain seemed a bit loose and passive.

If i was the villain and i hold AJ (not [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ) i would have bet the flop and only called the raise (especially multitabling). Maybe it's time for me to notice that other players are capable of raising the flop for free card on the turn too (depending on the reads of course).

Nevertheless i would assume, that a typical passive micro-limit player 3 - bets here only whit better than TPGK (and checks the turn UI) .

The raise makes things hard for CO and SB even if they think that hero is raising only overcards. There odds are ruined and there is a good chance that the bettor or the raiser has a decent hand.

Villan, being passive, obviously has some kind of hand when he bets from early position on the flop.

There are odds to call but to my thinking a raise is incorrect because 1) if you make your flush you want those behind to call too so you get paid off correctly, and 2) if you hit one of your overcards you don't want to give anyone correct odds to call your bet on the more expensive street.

How does that theory sound?

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[ggano]

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I still dont get it. Why would'nt you want to knock out hands like AT, Ax [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] , K7, K3, Q7, Q3... ? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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That's the upside. The downside is obviously that you have to invest one extra SB, and also that if you do make your flush, you've knocked out all kinds of hands you'd like to still see in there. On the flop the pot is large but not huge. I think another few SB in the pot and I'd raise, but here I'd just call.

[Entity]

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So, um, why'd you raise the flop?

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forgive me if i'm slow, but i still think raising this flop makes sense. you have overcards + BDFD + BDSD. a loose passive bets into you, so the chance of getting a free card UI on the turn is definitely a possibility and worth the investment.

sux you got 3-bet, but still worth it. i doubt he's on a draw being a loose passive or a weak-made pair of 7s. so seeing as the villain probably isn't on a flush draw and you've eliminated the field, i think most, if not all, of your overcard outs are good. but once he 3-bets and the 3rd Jack falls, both of our BDs are gone and it is doubful that spiking any of our overcard outs will win us the hand, that we should fold.

someone explain why raising this flop isn't worth the extra investment? reading through the Nate post, Entity you said:
[ QUOTE ]
With overcards+gutshots, oc+bd draws, etc., I raise a little more often

[/ QUOTE ] this hand seems to be perfect for this attempt based on reads and position.

EDIT: nevermind. i had to just sit and think about it for a while. it is because of our position on the raiser, that we shouldn't reraise. the fact that there is no one between us, that our raise looks to be overcards pushing out other hands. so really he 3-bets sorta for information and the only way to possibly get a free card on the turn is to cap the flop and make it look like we have a higher pair, which is too expense for the hand we hold. if we held an OESD or 4-flush draw, then could we cap the flop?

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It takes a very specific read and board for me to raise overcards+BD draws. A twoflushed J73 board is not the same type of board as a rainbow 752 board (my example), and even in my situation, the raise is slim, even with a very detailed read (as Nate pointed out).

Rob

Ooops. Misread the board. For some reason the second Jack didn't make the synapses (spelling?) in my brain trigger.

[Iq75]

ok,

raising has its flaws. Co might have hit the board hard and therefore 3 bet. SB might chek and raise for the same reason. And of course villain might 3 - bet. If there is a 4 flush we might make our top pair and still lose (due to reddraws also).

I admid that i'm a bit of a maniac in the flop, but i still think that at least in pasific 0.5/1 where i play (one of the two tables that i play) raising is the right option in this situation. Maybe when i get more experienced and/if i move to bigger limits whit better players i figure out why calling is better, but for now raising will have to do.

[MrEngenic]

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I call at least the present bet/raise on the turn, with only a 2-flush on the board and overcards (discounted, though, since 2 of those outs make the 3-flush for villains), unless I think they will continue to raise here. I'm doubting there are any pocket pairs QQ-AA. Probably JJ, flush/straight draws. Might be set of 7s or 3s, but with the fairly large pot, and what I think are some winning outs for you, I would be inclined to call here.

If you think they will continue to raise on the turn, then I might re-consider calling here b/c I think at that point the odds are against you.

If flush or straight card comes on the river, then I may still call with the large pot.

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