KQo and Ts that gave me alot of trouble

Cheshire · #1 07-20-2005, 08:26 PM

Lately the chips have just been flying out of my hands so I am taking some time to go over my play. I am having trouble with .5/1 dollar limit. The combination of people who will call bets with any pair or draw and the people who slow play everything is driving me crazy.

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, 4 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, BB folds, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, MP1 raises, Hero folds, UTG+1 calls.

River: (11.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 13.25 BB

I cannot remember any reads i might have had in this hand, so just assume these are usual .5/1 players. Getting check raised scared me then the board just got worse.

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, Button raises, SB calls, BB calls, Hero folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, Button bets, SB calls, BB calls, MP2 calls.

River: (13.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, MP2 raises, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Final Pot: 21.50 BB

My question on this hand is there any chance I should have called this, or bet the flop for that matter or an I just being too results oriented.

Dave G. · #2 07-20-2005, 08:34 PM

Hand 1
3-bet the flop. People probably have straight and flush draws but those won't come in most of the time. Take their money while they are still drawing - you almost certainly have the best hand.

The turn is tougher. If MP1 is predictable enough I find a fold here.

Hand 2
On the flop there are 5 players. I don't see any value in betting this flop with two overcards on the board, particularly As and Ks. You're never getting an A or K to fold. You're putting money into a pot that you have almost no chance of winning. Check/fold, hope to see a free turn.

However, since you did bet, when it comes back to you after buttons raise, you are getting 18:1 for your money to call. You are getting enough odds (plus implied odds) to call for a chance at hitting a T or improving your backdoor draw. So you should definitely be calling buttons raise; folding was a mistake (although given the co-ordinated nature of the board, it could be argued that it's not a big one).

flopwell · #3 07-20-2005, 08:42 PM

Hand 1. I would think about 3 betting the flop, other than that, I think I would play the same. If MP1 is welling to bluff raise that scare card, I woulda folded as well.

Hand 2. You are getting 18-1 to call this big pot, so I think even a BD straight draw is worth it. Don't fold. On the turn you know have a gutshot to the nut str8, and after checking, it would be odds enough to call......

just my $.02, but as a disclaimer, I have been known to go too far in big pots.

VoraciousReader · #4 07-20-2005, 09:00 PM

*grunch*
Hand 1: I'm not folding that turn. Even if the straight and the flush are BOTH already made, you have 4 outs to the full house. You have 5 to 1 odds now, almost what you need to chase it, and if they DO have the straight and the flush, your implied odds are good...chances are you can score at least 2 BBs from at least one of them on the river.

Chances are you are behind now, but you can't even be certain of that.

On the river, given that the 4th diamond falls, I will probably call one bet, but fold if it's 2 to me.

Hand 2: I like the fold. I'm probably check-folding this flop. It's UGLY for our hand. If I'd bet out on this, I probably call it for 1 more SB, but that's at least partly (mostly!) because I don't like to bet and fold in the same street. Of course, once the gutshot hits, I'm calling, given the pot odds.

However, on the flop you bet out, got raised, there are 2 overcards to your pocket pair, and your 10 outs are dirty since they make a straight with QJ, and all you have is a bdsd. Folding here is probably better than the way I'd play it.

Edit: DaveG and I agreed on almost nothing...but this we agree on: 3bet the flop in Hand 1.

Dave G. · #5 07-20-2005, 09:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*
Hand 1: I'm not folding that turn. Even if the straight and the flush are BOTH already made, you have 4 outs to the full house. You have 5 to 1 odds now, almost what you need to chase it

[/ QUOTE ]

For a 4 out draw we need 10.5:1 pot odds. We are well short of our odds for continuing here. We should only be continuing if we think our hand is still the best (and if so we should 3-bet). If not, this is a clear fold.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: I like the fold. I'm probably check-folding this flop. It's UGLY for our hand. If I'd bet out on this, I probably call it for 1 more SB, but that's at least partly (mostly!) because I don't like to bet and fold in the same street.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your reasons for not calling the second bet are understandable, but they could present a bit of a leak. Every decision at the table should be made with the pot odds comprising the vast majority of the weight of your decision. Table image should only be a very minor consideration. If it is clear to fold, then do so.

However, in this situation, the pot is so big that we can't really fold here.

VoraciousReader · #6 07-20-2005, 09:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*
Hand 1: I'm not folding that turn. Even if the straight and the flush are BOTH already made, you have 4 outs to the full house. You have 5 to 1 odds now, almost what you need to chase it

[/ QUOTE ]

For a 4 out draw we need 10.5:1 pot odds. We are well short of our odds for continuing here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Crap. I multiplied by 4 instead of 2. I think this is a sign I should stop playing poker this evening. You are, of course, correct. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Percy101 · #7 07-20-2005, 10:19 PM

Hand 1

I would 3 bet the flop here. On the turn, judging by MP1s flop cold call and turn raise I would probably give him credit for the flush and fold with insufficient odds to redraw to full house.

Hand 2

I would probably check-fold this flop. four opponents + overcards + few outs = bye bye tens. Since you did bet the flop, however, calling one back is correct as the pot is getting huge. Turn would then be a routine call with the gutshot draw.

irishpint · #8 07-20-2005, 10:22 PM

1. 3-bet the flop
2. dont focus on results, biotch

Cheshire · #9 07-20-2005, 11:13 PM

Thanks for all the advice.

Cheshire · #10 07-20-2005, 11:20 PM

In the first hand, UTG+1 had two small diamonds. MP had aces with the ace of diamonds.

For the second hand MP2 won with ten nine.