B&M 15/30 QJs steal?

[soonerorlater]

Great game. Loose and passive the whole way. The villain in this hand is a local dealer who is playing tighter than most, but still too loose (unsuited broadways from early position, suited gappers from late like 74s).

For the 1st time in a couple hours, it's folded around to me in the CO-1 holding QJs and I open raise. Folded to villain in the BB who calls. Flop comes Jd 4s 2s (I hold hearts). He checks, I bet, he checkraises, I 3-bet, he 4-bets, I call.

Turn is an offsuit K, he bets, I fold.

My questions are:

Given how loose the game has been, does anybody open limp and invite the cutoff and button into the pot (2 loose players)?

Does anybody think he has less than AJ/overpair when he 4-bets the flop?

Does anybody make a play for the pot on the turn in the hopes that he will fold AJ/QQ?

Thanks

[PokerHund]

The player you describe will not lay down AJ or QQ. Under no circumstances !! I definatly would just call his flop CR and instead of going to war on the flop i'll raise the turn and hopefully get a free showdown.

bet flop ; call CR; raise turn and fold to 3bet or take free showdown if unimproved

Seems like if you were going to fold on the turn, you should have folded to the 4th bet on the flop (probably to the check-raise on the flop too). I mean what could he be checkraising you with, a flush draw? JT? Seems like you are beat when check-raised on this flop by a fairly tight player.

And after he caps the flop, I don't think trying to make a play for it on the turn would work out very well.

Mark

[haakee]

A very plausible hand for him to play this way would be J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] x [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I wouldn't fold the turn.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anybody think he has less than AJ/overpair when he 4-bets the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
Many people would make it four bets on that flop (righly or wrongly) with a flush draw. This is especially true if they had something to go with the flush draw, like if he holds J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for a pair or A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]rag[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for a wheel draw (or even 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) or K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for overcards. We don't know your opponent, so only you know whether he will do this.

[ QUOTE ]
Does anybody make a play for the pot on the turn in the hopes that he will fold AJ/QQ?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. Getting someone to fold those hands here is very rare.

[MrStretchie]

[ QUOTE ]
The player you describe will not lay down AJ or QQ. Under no circumstances !! I definatly would just call his flop CR and instead of going to war on the flop i'll raise the turn and hopefully get a free showdown.

bet flop ; call CR; raise turn and fold to 3bet or take free showdown if unimproved

[/ QUOTE ]

[bobbyi]

Given that he will never fold a better hand, I see no advanatage to raising the turn and checking the river over calling down. The only difference between the two is that we sometimes get three-bet on the turn and have to either give up on a hand that probably outs to win or pay three bets to see a river we could have seen for one.

[soonerorlater]

Calling the flop c'raise and raising the turn has merit imho. From the games I have played in (all B&M), the BB c'raising this flop doesn't really amount to much. Any pair, the flush draw, the A of spades and another big card etc. are all possibilities. I basically expect the checkraise given that no AKQ fell. Calling the c'r then raising the turn punishes him the times he has middle pair or a draw and puts me on unimproved big cards. I'm not very worried about a turn 3-bet bluff (against typical players)in these situations, so folding to a turn 3-bet won't cause me much mental anguish.

I take his 4-bet, lead the turn line fairly seriously though, especially when a K falls. If I am behind, I'm most probably way behind w/ 5 outs to AA/AKo, 3 outs to AKspades, 2 outs to QQ, 3 outs to AJo, 2 outs to AJspades, and dead to KJ or any set. Conversely, if I am ahead he most probably still has 9-12 outs to beat me. Assuming he bets the turn and river, I'm basically getting 4-1 to call down. The river call becomes even more unpleasant if a spade, another overcard, or a spade+overcard falls.

All of that being said, I think I play too tight when headsup, which is why I posted this hand.

[stackm]

Isn't jacks up a possibility here? Given that this is a loose-passive game and he called from the big blind, my first thought when I see the check-raise is J2 or J4.

[JasonP530]

If youre unsure of what he has, just call him down. Certainly no need to 3 bet the flop, then worry that you may have thrown away the best hand. For the cost of 3 betting the flop, you could have gotten to the river....

The way you played it, the only hand you beat is Jx of spades that he played agressively. Typically, passive players wont play agressively with just big draws like a wheel/flush draw or a straight/flush draw, they need a made hand.