Pocket Aces, board scary, lots of action

[car ramrod]

We aren't protecting our hand by raising the turn. Do you mean, leading and letting utg raise to face the field with 2.

[davelin]

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I know it is fairly overused, and often not applicable, but this seems like a perfect time to wait for the turn to protect our hand. With any safe card, i.e. one that doesn't pair the board or complete the flush, our equity in this pot will skyrocket, making betting and raising on the turn insanely more profitable. Of course raising the flop is probably +ev, but I would say raising the turn is even more so. If anyone disagrees, I would very much like to hear it.

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I could not agree more.

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Protect our hand against what? The flush draw is going to the river with you. The fold on the flop is weak-sauce.

[crownjules]

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I know it is fairly overused, and often not applicable, but this seems like a perfect time to wait for the turn to protect our hand. With any safe card, i.e. one that doesn't pair the board or complete the flush, our equity in this pot will skyrocket, making betting and raising on the turn insanely more profitable. Of course raising the flop is probably +ev, but I would say raising the turn is even more so. If anyone disagrees, I would very much like to hear it.

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You can not protect this hand from anything except a gutshot straight by waiting for the turn. The pot is bloated and anyone with a single diamond or OESD will have the correct odds to call you on the turn. With implied odds, they can even peel off two on the turn with those draws (even if it checks through on the flop, which is highly unlikely). You need to extract as much value from those draws as you can while they're still drawing.

[DrunkHamster]

I would probably lead the turn if a brick fell, yeah. If UTG raises, beautiful, as the field must call 2 cold to draw or fold. If he doesn't, well, we have an overpair with 1 more card to come. Our equity will surely be much higher than the amound of people calling, so we are in a win win situation.

The only thing I would say is if it came back 2 to me, I would start getting cautious, simply because the standard at these limits is for donks to call the flop and raise the turn when they flop a monster.

[2+2 Junkie]

So the fact that there are 5 players entering the flop, and the fact that 3 other people, other tham me are not only not concerned about the flush, but are willing to raise and cold call with the flush on the board doesn't raise a flag of caution?
I figured someone for two pair, possible trips, or the flush/flush draw. If I had an Ace of diamonds, I thought that it would have been a no brainer.
I guess I am plyaing too weak here, my problem is probably i look at how others play, like cold calling and figure the range of hands I would cold call here with and figure that I am beat. I guess I need to start thinking like a moron (in terms of others play) rather than what I would have done in that situation.

[parappa]

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So the fact that there are 5 players entering the flop, and the fact that 3 other people, other tham me are not only not concerned about the flush, but are willing to raise and cold call with the flush on the board doesn't raise a flag of caution?
I figured someone for two pair, possible trips, or the flush/flush draw. If I had an Ace of diamonds, I thought that it would have been a no brainer.
I guess I am plyaing too weak here, my problem is probably i look at how others play, like cold calling and figure the range of hands I would cold call here with and figure that I am beat. I guess I need to start thinking like a moron (in terms of others play) rather than what I would have done in that situation.

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But this is exactly the point of having reads. If you have a read of someone as tight-weak, their hand is probably stronger than yours would be in that spot. If you have a read of them as a lag, their hand is probably weaker than yours would be there. Adjusting your beliefs about what range people hold in certain situations is what having reads is all about.

[DrunkHamster]

You're absolutely right, at this point protecting our hand is near enough impossible. I would still wait till the turn, however, for two reasons.
Firstly, we might get rid of someone with, say the J or Q of diamonds, by making them think that our hand is sufficiently strong that they are not getting the right odds. Of course, they are, but they don't know that - all they see is aggression, which might get them to fold.
Secondly, I'd go back to my other point. Yes, raising the flop is profitable - we get lots of people calling our small bets when we have high equity. But, betting/raising a safe turn is more profitable, because instead of them calling a small bet in a situation where we are fairly strong, they are calling a double bet in a situation which we are very strong.

[@bsolute_luck]

zee pot is too hoooge to fold just yet.

ps: for what it's worth UTG is uber-doubtful to have a flush here even being a LAG.

[2+2 Junkie]

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That's a really bad fold, imo. Even fish don't like hands like J6 or J3 enough to coldcall, usually. You can't play scared. Nothing here says the flush is out. A draw could very well be. There's a very good chance the LAG doesn't have a flush. I'd call here and bet out again on the turn, hoping lag again raises, and maybe folds out some of the coldcallers. Usually a cold call means I don't know what I'm doing, not I have a monster (usually!).

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I had to include this analysis in the results of the hand, because it is just too funny:
UTG+1 had J6, two pair Jacks and sixes
UTG+2 had QQ, two pair Queens and threes
CO had 77, two pair sevens and threes

My aces would have held up, but I didn't know if that meant I should have stayed in the hand, didn't want to be results oriented.

[Sir Bruce]

I don't like the flop fold. You're right that you're way behind, but you have some long-shot outs to a full house and the pot is offering 22.5 to 1. I make this call, and plan to fold on the turn unimproved.