"When you don't believe in God..........

[NotReady]

So you disagree with DS? And of course that you're right (about whatever you're trying to say which happens to be unintelligible) is so obvious that you can't bother with making any rational explanation.

[fishsauce]

You're kidding, right? I thought my post was pretty self-explanatory. But if you want me to break it down for you, here goes:

You said: "I think it's important to demonstrate that all non-theistic worldviews are fundamentally irrational and that no one really lives by that principle." Which, interpreted by anyone who can pass the rouge test, is the same as: "I think it's important to let everyone know that I believe on a completely emotional basis that all people in this world who don't agree with me are wrong, and I make this incredibly broad, obtuse generalization (in which I assume I have god-like powers and know squat about the principles that everyone in the world lives by) based entirely on nothing scientific or provable using rudimentary logic."

To be more specific, when you say "I think it's important to to demonstrate that..." that's the part that really means "I think it's important to let everyone know that I believe..." because you aren't demonstrating anything, you are just going to let us know your opinion.

When you say later in your post "My hope is that..." and "My job is simply to defend..." that means that what you are saying is "...on a completely emotional basis..." because you really want these things to happen or be true, but there is no other justification.

Then, when you say "...that all non-theistic worldviews are fundamentally irrational..." what you're really saying is "...that all people in this world who don't agree with me are wrong..."

Finally, when you say "...and that no one really lives by that principle" what you are really saying is "...and I make this incredibly broad, obtuse generalization..." because that's exactly what it is, your statement has no more quality than something moronic like "all people from the north are jerks." As well as you are asserting that you are aware of how EVERYONE who is a non-theist thinks - that's the "(in which I assume I have god-like powers and know squat about the principles that everyone in the world lives by)" part. And finally, your opinion is based on YOUR individual beliefs in YOUR particular implementation of a god, which is "based entirely on nothing scientific or provable using rudimentary logic."

There's nothing above that refers to Sklansky, I have no idea where that came from.

And for the record, I think your first statement in this thread is somewhat accurate (only "somewhat" because in that statement you assert the existence of a "true God") - as a nontheist, while I do not subscribe to the concept of a god, I agree that I take the final authority and responsiblity for myself, my life, and all of my actions and their consequences. So props to you for that.

But the statement you followed that with is asinine. How could you possibly have the slightlest clue as to what my, or anyone else's, worldview is and what principles I live by? Even if you did, how could you possibly be qualified to assess their rationality? How rational are yours? What about the worldview and principles (which could be very similar to yours) of god-fearing christian people who really like to molest children? What about the worldview and principles of a suicide bomber, killing in the name of his god?

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

As well as you are asserting that you are aware of how EVERYONE who is a non-theist thinks


[/ QUOTE ]

So please, stop yammering emotionally and show me rationally where I'm wrong and you're right. Go ahead, justify logic, science and morality. Do it. You will no doubt win a prize as the first in history cause no one else has ever done so on an irrational basis. Let's hear it.

[ QUOTE ]

There's nothing above that refers to Sklansky, I have no idea where that came from.


[/ QUOTE ]

You should read the whole thread before regurgitating nothing but nonsense. He said "Stipulated" to my first post, and he's agreed before that what I say is logical.

[ QUOTE ]

But the statement you followed that with is asinine. How could you possibly have the slightlest clue as to what my, or anyone else's, worldview is


[/ QUOTE ]

Every conceivable world view has been published, at least since Plato. If you have an original one which has never before graced the eyes of mankind, hack away.

[fishsauce]

[ QUOTE ]

So please, stop yammering emotionally and show me rationally where I'm wrong and you're right.


[/ QUOTE ] Dude, you obviously haven't read anything I have written. And you're the one who is running on emotion here, not me.

[ QUOTE ]

Go ahead, justify logic, science and morality. Do it. You will no doubt win a prize as the first in history cause no one else has ever done so on an irrational basis. Let's hear it.

[/ QUOTE ]
You miss the point completely. The point is: everyone has to do these things - make these justifications, come to their own conclusions about what they believe and feel is true - for THEMSELVES. Everyone needs to see their own proof, and it's absurd to think that your proof or beliefs are right for everyone, almost as ridiculous as you claiming to know what I think.



[ QUOTE ]

You should read the whole thread before regurgitating nothing but nonsense.


[/ QUOTE ]
Which is pretty funny, because all I've done is just repeat what you have said. And of course point out the problems with it.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

The point is: everyone has to do these things - make these justifications, come to their own conclusions about what they believe and feel is true - for THEMSELVES.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's true that everyone has to decide for themselves. What people have confused at least since Kant is that whatever they decide for themselves is true - and this is what I meant when I agreed with the OP that if one rejects God he puts himself in the place of God, as the Bible states it in Genesis, "knowing good and evil".

[ QUOTE ]

Everyone needs to see their own proof, and it's absurd to think that your proof or beliefs are right for everyone, almost as ridiculous as you claiming to know what I think.


[/ QUOTE ]

But I'm not asking anyone to belive what I do just because I believe it - I'm saying that what I present is truth and can be rationally justified. If God says something that applies to all mankind then it is right for everyone, not because I say it, but because He does. And I don't claim to know what you think, you're much too sensitive. I claim there are really only two ways that anyone CAN think about ultimate matters, usually expressed as design vs. chance or personal vs. impersonal. If you're a non-theist, which you've admitted, then you think in terms of chance and/or the impersonal. There's no alternative. I'm not claiming to read your mind.

[Piers]

[ QUOTE ]
When you don't believe in God.......... U believe you are God.."

[/ QUOTE ]

Being a God is a passive activity; the worshipers do all the work.

I am confident all my fleas consider me to be a god [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[CancerMan]

[ QUOTE ]
If God says something that applies to all mankind then it is right for everyone, not because I say it, but because He does.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain to me why you do or don't believe Joseph Smith? http://lds.org/ The founder of the Church of latter day saints.

[NotReady]

I looked at the site briefly and found much of it unobjectionable as far as it goes. Much could have been written by any orthodox Christian. A few things are clearly suspect however, such as the pre-existence of the soul.

I've also done some very superficial research on LDS and I think the site you gave doesn't even begin to tell the whole story of Mormonism. I don't want to go into detail here but I think very little of what I saw concerning Mormon doctrine is even close to Scriptural. I'm not sure what actually IS Morman doctrine at times because it does seem to change frequently.

I'm not that familiar with this subject though I did examine it for a while many years ago and became convinced that it isn't based on Scripture. It seems to be something of a hybrid, not unlike Islam, and has some similarities to that religion with respect to its claims to new revelation.

If you are a Mormon I'm not trying to offend you but I feel I should speak truth about this sort of thing. All Christian denominations have made errors in their past, but there is a qualitative difference between the errors of Mormonism and those of Catholicism or Lutheranism, for instance. There is much material on the net which I would urge you to examine. Some of it is obviously done from bad motives and no doubt some misrepresentation occurs. However, many of the problems with Mormonism can be documented and there are clearly major contradictions with the Bible, much as you find in Islam.

I don't wish to trivialize the sincerity of individual Mormons. One's fundamental beliefs are the most basic part of one's soul and generate emotional attachments that I fully understand. I do believe Mormonism is wrong about certain key issues and I think anyone sincerely after the truth will find their way.

[David Sklansky]

don't wish to trivialize the sincerity of individual Mormons. One's fundamental beliefs are the most basic part of one's soul and generate emotional attachments that I fully understand

What percentage of the pious clean living ones will go to heaven? You don't have to be exact.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

What percentage of the pious clean living ones will go to heaven? You don't have to be exact.


[/ QUOTE ]

The exact same number who
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and" they "shall be saved".