Bet AA preflop to reduce the number of callers?

[ggano]

[ QUOTE ]
Because you do not want garbage hands like 52o in it with you. These hands will only pay you if they hit two pair or better. You also do not want connectors suited in it with you. You want STRONG hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

As long as they're willing to pay a decent amount preflop, I'm HAPPY to have 52o play with me. I'm also happy to have as many opponents as possible, if they've paid enough preflop. With 7 opponents you'll certainly lose most of the time, but when your hand does hold up you'll make a fortune.

We're actually not too far apart - the key is to make people pay to try to draw out on us. I just want to emphasize that it's not too hard in NL to make it -EV for them to stay in PF. It's true that 52o or 76s will only put more money in post-flop if they hit, so that's why you have to make them pay pre-flop. Then I'm happy if they fold, and I'm also happy if they call. Either way is +EV for me.

On TV you see pros calling raises with suited connectors. Do you think if the raiser flashed AA, the pro would still call?

[spaminator101]

with 2 aces in limit i like no more than 3 opponents
in no limit it is imperitive to get it short handed

[spaminator101]

i agree thats the worst advice ive ever heard on AA

[Ryan11]

In NL you are giving someone implied odds for your whole stack pretty much. Someone coming it and hitting a garbage two pair like getting in cheap with with 46s and a flop coming 4Q6 you are going to lose a lot of money, where if that hand completely misses the flop you won't win anything extra from that player.

[spoohunter]

[ QUOTE ]
In NL you are giving someone implied odds for your whole stack pretty much. Someone coming it and hitting a garbage two pair like getting in cheap with with 46s and a flop coming 4Q6 you are going to lose a lot of money, where if that hand completely misses the flop you won't win anything extra from that player.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can fold aces post flop.

[ggano]

[ QUOTE ]
with 2 aces in limit i like no more than 3 opponents
in no limit it is imperitive to get it short handed

[/ QUOTE ]

What if you play against 5 opponents, each of whom pays 15% of their stack preflop?

My point is this: You raise preflop so that your opponent is -EV if he calls (including implied odds). If you make the necessary raise, you're happy if he calls. And this is separately true for each player. If calling is -EV for one opponent, it's -EV for all opponents. The number of people calling is irrelevant - in fact each call makes you more $ on average.

Also note that hot-and-cold simulations don't tell us much. The only real threat is that they flop > AA, which is quite rare. If they flop one pair, or a draw, you're going to make them pay more on later streets to try to further improve to beat you. And don't forget, your AA will improve too sometimes!

[imported_ncray]

Some numbers for thought:
Everyone's all in with equal stacks preflop, pocket pairs only:

You hold AdAh

2 people
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ad Ah 1410336 82.36 292660 17.09 9308 0.54 0.826
Kd Kh 292660 17.09 1410336 82.36 9308 0.54 0.174
Your EV: 1.6472 stacks

3 people
Ad Ah 924864 67.47 437704 31.93 8186 0.60 0.677
Kd Kh 233476 17.03 1129092 82.37 8186 0.60 0.172
Qd Qh 204228 14.90 1158340 84.50 8186 0.60 0.151
Your EV: 2.031 stacks

4 people
Ad Ah 595374 54.82 483506 44.52 7128 0.66 0.550
Kd Kh 187438 17.26 891442 82.08 7128 0.66 0.174
Qd Qh 157584 14.51 921296 84.83 7128 0.66 0.147
Jd Jh 138484 12.75 940396 86.59 7128 0.66 0.129
Your EV: 2.2 stacks

5 people
Ad Ah 378574 44.50 465992 54.78 6102 0.72 0.446
Kd Kh 149458 17.57 695108 81.71 6102 0.72 0.177
Qd Qh 122742 14.43 721824 84.85 6102 0.72 0.146
Jd Jh 102484 12.05 742082 87.24 6102 0.72 0.122
Td Th 91308 10.73 753258 88.55 6102 0.72 0.109
Your EV: 2.23 stacks

6 people
Ad Ah 240276 36.52 412624 62.71 5108 0.78 0.366
Kd Kh 118154 17.96 534746 81.27 5108 0.78 0.181
Qd Qh 95066 14.45 557834 84.78 5108 0.78 0.146
Jd Jh 77034 11.71 575866 87.52 5108 0.78 0.118
Td Th 64276 9.77 588624 89.46 5108 0.78 0.099
9d 9h 58094 8.83 594806 90.39 5108 0.78 0.090
Your EV: 2.196

7 people
Ad Ah 155092 30.90 342736 68.28 4114 0.82 0.310
Kd Kh 91298 18.19 406530 80.99 4114 0.82 0.183
Qd Qh 72852 14.51 424976 84.67 4114 0.82 0.146
Jd Jh 57470 11.45 440358 87.73 4114 0.82 0.116
Td Th 46154 9.20 451674 89.99 4114 0.82 0.093
9d 9h 38190 7.61 459638 91.57 4114 0.82 0.077
8d 8h 36772 7.33 461056 91.85 4114 0.82 0.074
Your EV: 2.17

So, with only pocket pairs in this highly artificial scenario, it looks like the highest EV situation is with 5 people. That is, at that point, as you increase additional people, the extra money in the pot does not offset the loss in times that AA wins the pot.

[ QUOTE ]
So, with only pocket pairs in this highly artificial scenario, it looks like the highest EV situation is with 5 people. That is, at that point, as you increase additional people, the extra money in the pot does not offset the loss in times that AA wins the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Highly artificial to say the least...nearly all of these hands would see the flop even with a raise so this tells us nothing about the effectiveness of a raise, just the quality of AA versus these hands. Nice try though. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Ryan11]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In NL you are giving someone implied odds for your whole stack pretty much. Someone coming it and hitting a garbage two pair like getting in cheap with with 46s and a flop coming 4Q6 you are going to lose a lot of money, where if that hand completely misses the flop you won't win anything extra from that player.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can fold aces post flop.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes you can, but many ppl get married to Aces and if the board looks relatively save as in this example they are often willing to risk their whole stack.

[Sakuraba]

Good idea putting some numbers to it.

I think you picked a biased example though.

First, the more players there are in the hand, the more likely players are to share cards or cards needed for improvement. This should be good for AA, since it is already ahead and much of its value comes from winning unimproved. In your example there are no shared cards. (but the cards are high which does impact straights)

Second, by having all of the pairs have the same suits, you reduce the flush possibility with every extra pair. Since AA has two 4 card nut flush draws, this lowers its equity. I am not sure how significant of an effect this has.

Obviously, the difficult part of this is trying to come up with a sample of hands where people are all in. Random hands is probably not the best example, but I don't know what is better.