did phil ivey choke? - Page 2

waj4ever16 · #11 07-15-2005, 08:04 AM

At least it wasn't AQ?

MrTrik · #12 07-15-2005, 08:42 AM

I'm not pro-Ivey or against. But I think it's quite possible that the days and days of high pressure games finally got to this guy and clouded his judgement. It seems he was playing out of his element and prolonged stress can do that to a player. I realize he is at or near the top of the game, but that doesn't mean he didn't start seeing things askew due to the fatigue of the WSOP. It could happen to any of us.

danzasmack · #13 07-15-2005, 09:17 AM

without knowing the exact raise amounts you really can't criticize his play.

He could have easily put the guy on a hand like 99 or 77, with a limp-huge reraise.

The way i see it, Ivey was playing for first.

MrTrik · #14 07-15-2005, 09:32 AM

Cardplayer.com covered some of his hands extensively. I suggest you read the write ups on that. There is no doubt he exhibited different behavior than what he has in the past. He did not play it cool, but pushed in odd situations. I proposed it might have been fatigue since it didn't seem to be a tilt situation. Just a theory and no more right or wrong than your opinion since neither of us have all the info.

Cased Heel · #15 07-15-2005, 10:20 AM

I've always thought that Ivey is probably the most likely player to make a final table, yet I hardly see him take it down? He always seems to come to the final table with the lead, just to finish 2nd or 3rd. This doesn't surprise me much at all. He's still a fantastic player but this is his flaw, his achilles heel. You don't have to have 50% of the chips-in-play when it gets to final 3. Anything can happen at that point. Really, when he's sitting on that many chips with 27 people left he should cruise to the final table playing more like a perpetual cash game. IMO, he takes risks he doesn't NECESSARILY have to before it gets SHORT-handed, and by that I mean 4 or less. As far as Raymer goes, his hand doesn't seem like much of a bad beat really...the guy semi-bluffed, and then called a raise and hit his card. This happens to us all on the internet every day. It just seems like such a bad beat b/c of the circumstances and cameras. I'm sure Greg realizes that luck has a lot to do with getting so far. Besides, I think he's "due" for some bad beats, right? [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] Ok, ok, that was crossing the line, but I think he made quite a name for himself (again). Lets put it this way, in 2 years he's placed better than 8169 opponents, and worse than just 24.

In 03'-04' Harrington's ratio was placing better than 3408, and worse than just 5. A much better ratio, albeit this doesn't include a 1st place victory. I think I'd still lean towards Raymer as a slightly more impressive 2-year performance. This takes into account his overall victory, which Harrington didn't have and the fact that in the non-similar event, Raymer faced 5618 opponents instead of 838, a much more daunting number.

kemystery · #16 07-15-2005, 10:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not pro-Ivey or against. But I think it's quite possible that the days and days of high pressure games finally got to this guy and clouded his judgement. It seems he was playing out of his element and prolonged stress can do that to a player. I realize he is at or near the top of the game, but that doesn't mean he didn't start seeing things askew due to the fatigue of the WSOP. It could happen to any of us.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the first time I've ever seen this description of Ivey, somewhat uncharacteristic. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Walter Pullis · #17 07-15-2005, 10:51 AM

No one can say that he choked, but I think his reputation took a hit. I think it was assumed that someday he would win the ME;now that is not so clear.

johnegolfer · #18 07-15-2005, 10:53 AM

How does that prop bet versus Tiger look now?

JE

-Skeme- · #19 07-15-2005, 11:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
He always seems to come to the final table with the lead, just to finish 2nd or 3rd.

[/ QUOTE ]

He just won a bracelet a few weeks ago.

Miles Ahead · #20 07-15-2005, 11:32 AM

I think Matusow is right about the first few big pots Ivey lost, but Ivey had obviously decided he was going to stick with the aggressive approach that got him into 2nd chip position.

It looks like he tightened up then, waited for a good hand and just made a bad read when he picked up JJ.