When Karl Rove is in prison

[JimBob2232]

First of all, Rove will never go to prision. Even if everything alleged is true, he has commited no punishible crime. (Now if lying under oath or something comes out of it, thats a different story).

Secondly, Even if he is convicted of some crime, the president will pardon him before he leaves office.

Third, connect the dots.
-Judith Miller of the NY Times is in Jail for not revealing her source.
-Matt Cooper refused to reveal his source, until he was facing prison time.
-Both Cooper and Miller have the same source
-Cooper got a release of confidentiality from his source and he went public saying it was rove.
-Miller still claims she cannot release her source.

Now, why, if rove granted a release of confidentiality to one jornalist, woulndt he do it to both?

I think there is more here than meets the eye. Something is fishy. I think bush is doing the right thing right now. He is taking a step back, not publically supporting Rove, but at the same time not saying anything to the contrary. He wants to know what happened (as we all do), but as I said before, he did nothing illegal, but legal does not mean right. Its time for everyone to take a deep breath. If in fact he did what is alleged he should be fired, and I think bush will do so. But its too early to know right now. Democrats once again have jumped the gun when they thought they had a chance to bury a republican.

[slamdunkpro]

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And I don't know why you keep insisting she was not an agent - she may not fit the criteria for the crime, but she was an agent working for the CIA, period.

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Contrary to the popular image, not everyone who works at the CIA is an "Agent" Valerie Plame is a manager who does not handle field personnel. She handles overt analysts. There is a difference

As I said in a previous post – Aldrich Ames admitted exposing Plame to the Russians after his arrest in 93. At that point she was “outed” and no longer able to be in a covert position. In fact she’s one of the lucky ones – a lot of people Ames exposed in the 80’s “disappeared”.

One possible scenario is this: Wilson is lying his ass off to the press (more or less proven). Someone gets ahold of this in the White House and tells Rove. In a conversation with Cooper, Rove tries to warn him off of Wilson as a crackpot source. When Cooper asks Rove if the Vice President sent Wilson to Niger, he answers, “no, his wife did”. Cooper goes back to Wilson who, to avoid admitting he’s a liar goes “Oh my God, my wife is a CIA agent and the White House just blew her cover!!!!” The press then blows this up to “White House source exposes CIA agent.” Someone at the White House reads this in the Post and tells the President who, in a fit of angers says, “Whoever leaked this information that exposed a covert agent will be fired. Later The President is informed that there was no exposure – she is and was an overt employee.

Rose-colored glasses? – Possibly. More like a Marx Brothers movie with the press running around trying to stick it to the White House.

[BCPVP]

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Here's another context: Rove/Bush/etc. didn't like what Wilson was saying about Iraq, so they did their best to discredit him. They would not have cared about the nepotism at all if Wilson was making favorable statements.

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Here's what's wrong with your theory. If Bush wanted Rove to leak this in order to discredit Wilson, why would Bush issue this threat to fire the leaker? He would be forcing himself to either fire Rove or lose a lot of face by not keeping his word. That doesn't make any sense. My theory, however makes much more sense. Obviously Rove said what he said in order to combat the lies that Wilson was telling (that Cheney/Tenet sent Wilson to Niger). But this was the right thing to do. Combat lies with the truth. What you're asking Rove to do is combat lies with more lies. And the truth has been blown way out of proportion by the liberals in the media and Democratic leadership. j

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Mentioning Plame's wife. At the very least it was a mistake - look at all the bad publicity Rove and Bush are getting because of this!!

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The mistake then is underestimating the power of the dems and some in the media to twist this into a "scandal". Mentioning who sent Wilson to Niger was intentional, and it was intended to discredit Wilson. And it was also not only legal but the right thing to do.

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Just because something is true doesn't mean you are obliged to tell it to a reporter. Rove had an agenda.

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He should tell a reporter if a bush critic is also a habitual liar. Especially if that reporter would otherwise print a false picture of the situation.

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He could and should have kept his mouth shut.

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No, he shouldn't have. WE have a right to know if someone who is critizing the WH is lying through their teeth. Plame is not in any more danger because of Rove and the democrat hack, Wilson, is exposed for what he is; a liar.

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No, there was another option: he could have chosen not to talk/leak to any reporters about the subject.

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This would be almost as bad as lying because the media would have the wrong idea of how Wilson was chosen for this trip.

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And I don't know why you keep insisting she was not an agent - she may not fit the criteria for the crime, but she was an agent working for the CIA, period.

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Janitors at Langley are not considered "agents" simply because they work at the CIA. They're janitors. Plame was an analyst. She was not a covert agent at the time and had not been for some time. Therefore, leaking that it was Plame who sent Wilson, and not Cheney or Tenet, was completely legal and moral, period.

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Why do you think Bush was so angry when he heard about the leak and promised to fire anyone in his administration involved?

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Because he probably heard it in such a way as to make it seem as though the leaker had done something illegal or wrong. What Rove did was not illegal, and it was not wrong.

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We're not talking about your summer job here; we're talking about a CIA agent.

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No...we're talking about an analyst with no covert status. I believe Plame still works for the CIA. She's felt secure enough (even having been "outed") to have Vanity Fair do a photo shoot with her and her husband. Clearly the gov't wasn't worried about anybody knowing who she was. So what's the problem?

FWIW, here's an article from the WaPo that suggests that no one will be charged with breaking the intel identities act, but someone may be charged with perjury. Bear in mind that it's a little dated.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2005Apr6.html

[tylerdurden]

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One possible scenario is this: Wilson is lying his ass off to the press (more or less proven). Someone gets ahold of this in the White House and tells Rove. In a conversation with Cooper, Rove tries to warn him off of Wilson as a crackpot source. When Cooper asks Rove if the Vice President sent Wilson to Niger, he answers, “no, his wife did”. Cooper goes back to Wilson who, to avoid admitting he’s a liar goes “Oh my God, my wife is a CIA agent and the White House just blew her cover!!!!”

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Given the info we have now (including cooper's notes), this seems likely to be pretty close to the truth. Yawn.

[ptmusic]

If your scenario were true, and this is all really a non-story, then why didn't Rove and the White House nip this in the bud when the story first broke nearly two years ago?

-ptmusic

[ptmusic]

You're right in that I should have said that Rove/Bush/etc. didn't like what Wilson was saying about Iraq, so Rove did his best to discredit Wilson. Then Bush heard about this and promised a firing.

"Because he probably heard it in such a way as to make it seem as though the leaker had done something illegal or wrong."

Boy, you sure make the West Wing sound like a house full of confusion. Why didn't Bush get good information on the subject? Especially since one of his TOP aides was a central figure!!!

And again, if this is such a non-story, why didn't it go away nearly two years ago, AND why is there a special prosecution at all? And why is someone in jail over this right now? And why won't the White House and/or Rove speak out about any of this?

Clearly, there is danger lurking for at least Rove. He probably won't go to jail or even get fired, but that's not because he did such a good thing, as you say. You are talking like he should be praised for his patriotism during all this. He's a politician, not a patriot (in this case), who made a mistake.

What if it turns out that he obstructed justice, or lied to the President? Will you still defend him then?

-ptmusic

[BCPVP]

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You're right in that I should have said that Rove/Bush/etc. didn't like what Wilson was saying about Iraq, so Rove did his best to discredit Wilson. Then Bush heard about this and promised a firing.

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Two points:
1) You think this is the "best" Rove could do to discredit Wilson? Cooper called Rove and Cooper changed the subject to Wilson. Rove's answer was very short. This hardly proves that Rove was actively trying to discredit Wilson. All we know is that Rove gave a truthful answer that happened to show that Wilson was a liar.
2) This theory still doesn't make since. If Bush knew/wanted Karl Rove to leak this, why would he "promise a firing"? He would essentially be firing Karl Rove or losing face for not doing so.

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Boy, you sure make the West Wing sound like a house full of confusion. Why didn't Bush get good information on the subject? Especially since one of his TOP aides was a central figure!!!

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Bear in mind that we're all speculating here. But why do you believe that the President knows all the facts at all times? Is it possible that Bush didn't know all the facts of this, so when it's suggested to him that a senior admin official "leaked the identity of a CIA agent", he might be understandbly P.O.'d, but now that we know more about what happened, it's clear Rove didn't do anything wrong, and shouldn't be fired for doing the right thing.

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And again, if this is such a non-story, why didn't it go away nearly two years ago, AND why is there a special prosecution at all?

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1) Liberals have been fuming over the Bush election and re-election and see this as a chance for retribution. So they'll stop at nothing to take him down, piece by piece.
2) If you'd read the WaPo story I posted, you'd see that the special prosecution is probably not going to indict anyone for breaking the covert agent identity law, but may be trying to find evidence of perjury.

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And why is someone in jail over this right now?

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Good question. Especially since Rove has released all reporters from confidentiality.

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And why won't the White House and/or Rove speak out about any of this?

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I believe Fitzgerald, special prosecutor, asked the WH not to.

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Clearly, there is danger lurking for at least Rove.

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It seems that the only danger Rove is in now is of having perjured himself. In won't defend Rove in committing perjury.

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You are talking like he should be praised for his patriotism during all this. He's a politician, not a patriot (in this case), who made a mistake.

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He should be praised for clarifying who it was that sent Wilson to Niger and refuting the fantasies of Joe Wilson. Again, I fail to see this mistake, unless it was of underestimating the lengths to which some will go in order to see him fall.

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What if it turns out that he obstructed justice, or lied to the President? Will you still defend him then?

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Then he should be fired. I have no particular attachment to Rove. I, unlike many democrats in the previous decade, will not try to circle the wagons around someone who is guilty of a crime (like perjury [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]).

[EricOF]

Said Wilson with Wolf Blitzer:

"WILSON: My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity."

If true, that pretty much ends that.

[EricOF]

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Look at it another way. How is the administration supposed to answer the question of why was Wilson chosen for this assignment? Especially when you have Wilson claiming Tenet and even Cheney asked him to go, which both deny. What then? Would this stonewalling not induce further media scrutiny, which if Plame's identity was common knowledge, would have been discovered eventually? That this is being billed as some sort of "payback" for critizing the administration seems silly to me because the payback doesn't do anything. It's mildly embarrassing for Wilson, having claimed that his wife didn't recommend him, but it's also true.

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This seems to be what the Wilsons were hoping for. Use her position at the CIA as a shield to make false statements about the genesis of his trip to Niger. Wilson piles up the lies and when the WH dares to set the record straight, accuse them of revealing too much information about Plame. We really don't need CIA employees using their jobs to launch political broadsides.

[[censored]]

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Look at it another way. How is the administration supposed to answer the question of why was Wilson chosen for this assignment? Especially when you have Wilson claiming Tenet and even Cheney asked him to go, which both deny. What then? Would this stonewalling not induce further media scrutiny, which if Plame's identity was common knowledge, would have been discovered eventually? That this is being billed as some sort of "payback" for critizing the administration seems silly to me because the payback doesn't do anything. It's mildly embarrassing for Wilson, having claimed that his wife didn't recommend him, but it's also true.

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This seems to be what the Wilsons were hoping for. Use her position at the CIA as a shield to make false statements about the genesis of his trip to Niger. Wilson piles up the lies and when the WH dares to set the record straight, accuse them of revealing too much information about Plame. We really don't need CIA employees using their jobs to launch political broadsides.

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Clealry Joe Wilson is not the good guy here. I would hope nobody is argueing as much.