Should I ever get away from this? - Page 2

ArturiusX · #11 07-13-2005, 06:23 AM

Against aggressive players I check-raise the flop. A 3-bet means im gone, so I usually peel and fold.

Against more passive players I like c/c c/c b/c.

Jake (The Snake) · #12 07-13-2005, 06:27 AM

Hey man... I said it was a mistake. Chill [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]. I should have said "pretending".

Anyway, since I'm behind the likely range but still have odds to call all the way down, maybe c/c, c/c, b/f or c/c, c/c, c/c is better. I don't think I like c/c, c/c, b/c since it would be horribly unlikely for villain to raise the river without an ace.

pandared · #13 07-13-2005, 06:42 AM

if you are behind the likely range, u'd have 2 outs to call...don't think it's proper odds no matter what street you are on

In a shorthanded game it'd be alot different and one would definitely take the kings to the river, but in a full ring game like this one (i could be wrong, but it seemed like u were describing a 10 handed game), I would place villain in the range of a-10, a-x suited and 10-10 to make the fold

Reraising might fold a-j, but he's getting 10:1 odds to call to make his 2 pair so he will probably call, you'd also have to lead the turn if you take the 3 bet line on the flop. Out of position, it just gets messy when they decide to call in the dark with a bare ace, you are wasting alot of bets to take down a small pot

MrEngenic · #14 07-13-2005, 06:58 AM

I don't think I would ever fold this. Maybe against a super passive rock. I would check/call flop and turn, bet the river and call a raise. You can't really 3-bet preflop with KK and fold because an A drops and it's HU. People will notice and bluff you all the time.

I'm surprised by all comments that says fold. I don't think this is even close.

mack848 · #15 07-13-2005, 08:40 AM

I am surprised at the number of posts recommending check/calling the flop. Villain only raised first in from MP and called a 3-bet. It's not as if he went beserk pre-flop - he can have many non-Ace hands here.

I don't see how check/calling the flop with KK can be correct.

Jake (The Snake) · #16 07-13-2005, 09:26 AM

Against a decent player's raising standards I only have slightly greater than 40% equity on this flop.

Betting isn't for value then. It can only be useful if it either folds a hand that is already better than mine or one that will outdraw me. Both of these possibilities are remote.

Right now I'm thinking check/call all the way down is appropriate unless of course I spike a king.

colgin · #17 07-13-2005, 12:01 PM

Against many players you can safely fold to the flop raise here. If villain doesn't have an Ace he has to be worried that you have one (AK would clearly be a typical three-betting hand for you pre-flop).

There is some chance that he is raising for a free card/semi-bluffing with KQ. However, when he follows through with a bet on the turn I think you are probably drawing to 2 outs and unless he is very aggressive I would fold. Again, if he is playing a draw he has to worry that you may be looking to now check-raise him with your TPTK. Taking a free card for that hand would be typica. When he bets again, I tend to put him on an Ace, particularly since you don't have one.

In any event, if you do call the turn I think you have to check-fold the river. If villain has overplayed something like JJ or QQ thus far I think he is taking the free showdown at this point.

SmileyEH · #18 07-13-2005, 12:04 PM

If I'm villian I will bluff raise this flop without an ace a lot of the time and follow through on the turn as well. CDC's line sounds pretty good.

-SmileyEH

kurosh · #19 07-13-2005, 01:24 PM

If I'm villain, I'm very rarely raising the flop with an ace. I don't know what limits you're playing at but against more aggressive and better opponents, I bet/call, check/call and bet/fold. I think at anything 3/6 and below, against straightforward opponents, you can safely fold to the flop raise, but for metagame purposes, I'd call the flop raise and fold the turn. There's also the chance that he wanted a free card and will check behind on the turn.

Reasoning for this is that the opponent will play differently based on his skill (obviously) so this is a heavily read based hand. Stronger opponents will not be raising that flop with an ace very often. The aggressive good handreader types will be doing it with KQ and underpairs because there's an awesome chance you don't have an ace. Weak and straightforward opposition will raise the flop with an ace.

SmileyEH · #20 07-13-2005, 01:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm villain, I'm very rarely raising the flop with an ace. I don't know what limits you're playing at but against more aggressive and better opponents, I bet/call, check/call and bet/fold. I think at anything 3/6 and below, against straightforward opponents, you can safely fold to the flop raise, but for metagame purposes, I'd call the flop raise and fold the turn.

Reasoning for this is that the opponent will play differently based on his skill (obviously) so this is a heavily read based hand. Stronger opponents will not be raising that flop with an ace very often. The aggressive good handreader types will be doing it with KQ and underpairs because there's an awesome chance you don't have an ace. Weak and straightforward opposition will raise the flop with an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good stuff.

-SmileyEH