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#71
07-12-2005, 06:36 PM
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Re: Raymer and BIG STACK poker...
there's no way. if he lost them he wouldn't be able to bully so much nor could he risk getting into coinflips. he was a big leader but not that big. if david won the hand HU, david would have been double raymer, and at all times, someone big could have easily crippled his stack. not saying it happened though.
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#72
07-12-2005, 06:46 PM
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Re: Raymer and BIG STACK poker...
[ QUOTE ]
Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you believed most of the posters in this thread, skill at poker is measured by getting your money in with the best of it. Once the cards are flipped up, if the worse hand wins it's a bad beat. Let's try looking at it another way. Say you raise all-in and I correctly deduce that you would only do this with AA-99. I have KK so I call. It turns out you have AA, but I flop a king and win. Anyone discussing this hand would say that I got lucky. But almost no one would point out that I got very unlucky when you turned out to have AA, out of the range of hands I correctly put you on. But just because you had AA doesn't change the fact that my call was correct. And if I go on to win the tournament, people would talk about how I got lucky on that KK v. AA hand, but considering I made the right decision, was it really "luck" that I won? Heck, if the other guy won the hand, I'd say he was "lucky" to be dealt AA when someone else had KK! Whoever wins the WSOP is going to be very, very lucky, even if he never makes an incorrect decision for the entire tournament. Sometimes he will be lucky to get good cards, and sometimes he will be lucky to suck out when he gets his money in with the worst of it. So please understand that it's meaningless to talk about how "lucky" someone was when they won, unless you can point to actual bad plays that they made and got away with. It's complicated to talk about luck and skill in this way, since we never really know what range of hands one player puts another player on, and we can argue all day about what range of hands he SHOULD put the other player on. But it's important to understand that talking about luck and skill in any other terms is virtually meaningless. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Required reading. [/ QUOTE ] This is an excellent articulation on a complex topic that a lot of players misunderstand. Getting the "best of it" is the point and no one ever wins the WSOP without having some fortuitous results on 'coin-toss' hands. Let's put it this way: should you ever lay down A-A pre-flop? Rock27 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
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#73
07-12-2005, 06:54 PM
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Hellmuth on Raymer
Raymer's roll
"That is scary." Phil Hellmuth had appeared around the featured table and was chatting people up. He does that from time to time. He was talking with Neverwin and walking in between in the ESPN cameras. Someone said, "What about that Raymer?" Hellmuth looked over the rail where Raymer was sitting in a new custom blue shirt and a stack of chips nearly $1.5 million high. Hellmuth said it as clearly as everyone was thinking it... "That is scary." Greg Raymer And it is. Raymer's style of play is no big secret. He puts reads on people and goes with them, the consequences be damned. If he's pot-committed on a draw, he'll draw, the consequences be damned. And if he has a chance to race (and a stack with which to race), he'll race, the consequences be damned. Indeed, that is scary.
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#74
07-12-2005, 07:06 PM
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Re: Raymer and BIG STACK poker...
This is the funniest post I have ever read on 2 plus 2. I totally agree with you that alot of people are constantly brown-nosing raymer, and I can't figure out why. In an interview with Raymer, even he says that he has gotten extremely lucky in this years main event (this is at card player). Its not like Raymer was making surreal bluffs or huge calls. I read somewhere the Stuey Unger once called Mansour Matloubi (wsop mE champ) with a ten high to win $50,000. If your going to idealize someone, idealize that.
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#75
07-12-2005, 07:14 PM
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Re: Raymer and BIG STACK poker...
Keyword "DEADMONEY", Raymer isn't top five anything, he is just lucky while playing a huge field of amateurs.
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#76
07-12-2005, 07:17 PM
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Re: Raymer and BIG STACK poker...
You hit the nail on the head. I think he (Raymer) is not afriad of the situations most will avoid... e.g., he does not shy away from race situations.
There were televised (one with an A8o I believe) hands last year where Raymer (pre- big stack) pushed with 'obviously' weaker cards than his opponent... and certainly, any casual observer could look at his hand and say, 'what is this guy doing?', or 'man, he's lucky that other guy with TP didn't call'... To continue this thought on a different track, it reminded me of the Harrington (KK) and Lester (77) hand from the 2003 WSOP Final Table (featured in HoH V1)... Harrington even comments in his book that to a casual observer, this play probably looks pretty foolish on both parts... and only works itself out the way it does because of the potential of the players involved... E.g., I suppose it is easy for armchair QBs to look at a hand like this and totally 'not get' what was really going on... Or maybe Harrington was lying, I dunno. I tend to believe him, and I'm sure there are many situations like this that average players just 'don't get' because they just haven't learned to watch the game correctly and finally (because of the HoH books) get a chance to 'hear' at least one side of the mind games..
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#77
07-12-2005, 07:20 PM
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Re: Raymer and BIG STACK poker...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Raymer may be top 5 at playing large tournaments filled with dead money. He's hardly a top 5 cash game player. [/ QUOTE ] I'm curious......Upon what do you base your opinion? If your response starts with something like......."I've heard.....", or "I've been told".......or any other second or third hand opinion..... ....please don't bother responding. [/ QUOTE ] Are you claiming Raymer is a top 5 cash game player? I can list 5 players better than him: Barry Greenstein Phil Ivey Chip Reese Chau Giang Doyle Brunson [/ QUOTE ] No, I am making no such claim, as I don't play in those circles. However, I am getting a bit weary of people offering their opinion as if it was fact. Dick-waving contests are for little boys........ When it sinks to the level of little boys waving someone elses dick, it's time to call in the shrinks....
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#78
07-12-2005, 07:28 PM
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Re: Raymer and BIG STACK poker...
[ QUOTE ]
no way. [/ QUOTE ] Yes way. Think about the stack sizes.
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#79
07-12-2005, 07:39 PM
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Re: Hellmuth on Raymer
[ QUOTE ]
Raymer's roll "That is scary." Phil Hellmuth had appeared around the featured table and was chatting people up. He does that from time to time. He was talking with Neverwin and walking in between in the ESPN cameras. Someone said, "What about that Raymer?" Hellmuth looked over the rail where Raymer was sitting in a new custom blue shirt and a stack of chips nearly $1.5 million high. Hellmuth said it as clearly as everyone was thinking it... "That is scary." Greg Raymer And it is. Raymer's style of play is no big secret. He puts reads on people and goes with them, the consequences be damned. If he's pot-committed on a draw, he'll draw, the consequences be damned. And if he has a chance to race (and a stack with which to race), he'll race, the consequences be damned. Indeed, that is scary. [/ QUOTE ] AC has said it best I think. Raymer takes risks in order to win big pots and accumulate a mass of chips. Great tactic when its successful. But I would interested to know how many times Greg busts early in tournaments due to his all or nothing approach?
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#80
07-12-2005, 10:38 PM
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Re: Raymer and BIG STACK poker...
[ QUOTE ]
Raymer I think is one of the top 5 poker players in the world right now. [/ QUOTE ] not. he's had a great WS but that's it. he has'nt even won a tournament yet. players in the top 10 on Cardplayer's list such as John Phan, Phil Ivey, Erick Lindgren, Mike Mizrachi, and Ted Forrest have all had better performances so far. even Mark Seif (10th) has two victories (both WSOP) and Michael Gracz two wins (Party Poker Million and WSOP). Greg Raymer is ranked 537th with one final table appearance worthy of Cardplayer points. Darrell Dicken (gigabet), Prahald Friedman (Spirit Rock), Edward Moncada (ebolivia), Todd Witteles (Dan Druff), Allen Cunningham (wallfly), Scott Fischman (emptyseat88), and Dustin Woolf (neverwin), among others, all have more points than him on Cardplayer. i'm think you're really stepping out on a limb with the "top 5 players in the world right now bit".
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